runacc.costume-con.org

Finally! Someone else weighs in!

—– Original Message —–
From: “Pierre & Sandy Pettinger” <costumrs@radiks.net>

> The balance of using masquerade history and ignoring any knowledge of past
> events is a difficult one. As many of you might imagine, given my
> propensity for collecting past masquerades, I find it is particularly
> difficult to ignore past work. Generally, I strive to so ignore the past
> and attempt to judge on what I see on stage.

That pretty much describes my position from the “amateur historian”
standpoint. Of course, I’ve judged so little that it’s a bit academic. The
one time I judged with Andy and Nora at a Duckcon a few years back, it was
interesting to observe how we each came to our decisions.

We’ll never match you guys for collection, but then, we pretty much only
collect the ones that interest us, rather than everything.

The only time I stray from
> that if I see a particularly egregious example of an entry that is
> sandbagging (wasn’t that BIS at Worldcon 1983? [picking a worldcon without
> a BIS for safety]) or if the quality of workmanship is so poor compared to
> what I know is an entry’s skill level.

That sounds like it was a particularly egregious incident. Defintely the
“bad old days”.

>

It is embarrassing, though,
> if a judge tells a contestant “that entry beat you because it was so
> original and all other factors were equal between you.” only to have the
> contestant answer back “but they did that same type of costume at
> Somethingorothercon ## variable number of years ago!”

Yikes. Never thought about that scenario. LIke you said, then, it’s a
good idea to have the history. Fortunately, I doubt that happens very
often(?).

Bruce

—– Original Message —–
From: “Charles” <cgalway@xmission.com>

So if every entry seemed to met a certain high level, they would all be
awarded recognition, and if they were all below expectation, none would.

Wow. That’s…..bizarre. Sor, sorta like a Pass/Fail exam.
>
> I read a similar comment a year or so ago, about Best in Show — something
like the judges may not feel compelled to award a BIS, if no single entry
stood out strongly over the rest.
>
> Certainly many masquerades do try to allow awarding a ribbon (but not a
major award win), to elements meriting recognition.

I’ve wondered about this seemingly East Coast phenomenon. Does it still
occur? I don’t know how I feel about that issue one way or another. I
suppose it depends on what your policy for what is considered “Best In
Show”.

Bruce

Interestingly enough, that is exactly what happened in this year’s
masquerade.

Funny how history repeats, isn’t it?

Of course, it was pointed out to me way after the end of the con, and as
anecdotal information, but still.

And, there is no way to guarantee that the judges will all know their
costume history to avoid such situations. All it means is, be careful
what you think you’re awarding… You could be wrong.

Betsy

>>if a judge tells a contestant “that entry beat you because it was so
>>original and all other factors were equal between you.” only to have the
>>contestant answer back “but they did that same type of costume at
>>Somethingorothercon ## variable number of years ago!”
>
>
> Yikes. Never thought about that scenario. LIke you said, then, it’s a
> good idea to have the history. Fortunately, I doubt that happens very
> often(?).
>
> Bruce

One of my staff from CC21 has the opinion that CC staff should not be spread
out and be local. However, it appears that CC23 and CC24 seem to be doing just
fine with a Yahoo group connection. I, personally, believe that a CC can be
run just fine via Yahoo group communications and e-mails to individuals.

I am interested in hearing pro’s and con’s, good and bad about using the
e-mail method, as opposed to keeping staff local and having face-to-face meetings.

Henry

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

There are some jobs which can be held by people who are not local to the
con’s hotel, but the following positions should be held by someone local:

Chair(s)
Treasurer
Hotel Liaison
Logistics
Tech Director

Someone’s got to be available to deal with the space in person. The
above are the bare minimum (IMHO) who must be local. There’s just too
much that needs to be done in person prior to the con.

The bank account should be local to the site. Why? we deposited in
excess of $3,000 in cash, collected during the course of the weekend for
CCXV. You really don’t want to try carrying that kind of cash around for
long.

I’m sure there are other positions which could be listed above…

Note, though, that in a distributed committee, assigning the job of
meeting secretary is a Very Good Idea, and establishing a method by
which all committee members are kept in the know is also a real good
idea. Helps keep the random members of the concom from saying “I don’t
know, that’s not my department.”

Everyone doesn’t need to know how to do all the jobs, but everyone
should at least have a passing acquaintance with the issues dealt with
by the holders of those jobs. Less isolation and more sharing means more
support in the long run.

The above is my own personal $0.02, adjusted for inflation. YMMV.

Betsy

osierhenry@cs.com wrote:

> One of my staff from CC21 has the opinion that CC staff should not be spread
> out and be local. However, it appears that CC23 and CC24 seem to be doing just
> fine with a Yahoo group connection. I, personally, believe that a CC can be
> run just fine via Yahoo group communications and e-mails to individuals.
>
> I am interested in hearing pro’s and con’s, good and bad about using the
> e-mail method, as opposed to keeping staff local and having face-to-face meetings.
>
> Henry
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>
> View the Document: http://www.Costume-Con.org/procedure/runacc/
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

In a message dated 5/18/2005 12:56:15 AM Central Daylight Time,
costumrs@radiks.net writes:

> The balance of using masquerade history and ignoring any knowledge of past
> events is a difficult one.

In my opinion, judging is a combination of having just watched masquerades
and being in masquerades. I agree that past work in both area should not be
ignored. Its from them that we learn.

I also think that viewing other presentations, such as movies, ice skating
routines, beauty pageants, etc., can help expand ones judging skills. This
partly comes from my years of working in television, particularly working on a
gospel music program and having to work with some bad groups.

Agendas: BAD!

Henry

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Betsy,
Totally agree on the Must Be Local Positions, and the bank account.
Thanks for the feedback!
Henry

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

>
>
>I’ve wondered about this seemingly East Coast phenomenon. Does it still
>occur? I don’t know how I feel about that issue one way or another. I
>suppose it depends on what your policy for what is considered “Best In
>Show”.
>
>Bruce

That was even an occurance at Worldcons. and of course for the first 3 CC’s
(only one east coast).I don’t think that’s happened in many years now on
the east coast.

Ricky

>View the Document:
><http://www.Costume-Con.org/procedure/runacc/>http://www.Costume-Con.org/procedure/runacc/
>
>
>
>
>———-
>Yahoo! Groups Links
> * To visit your group on the web, go to:
> *
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/runacc/>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/runacc/
> *
> * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> *
> <mailto:runacc-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe>runacc-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
> *
> * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the
> <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>Yahoo! Terms of Service.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

>
>
>
>I’ve wondered about this seemingly East Coast phenomenon. Does it still
>occur? I don’t know how I feel about that issue one way or another. I
>suppose it depends on what your policy for what is considered “Best In
>Show”.
>
>Bruce

Also, we all know that sometimes you’re tempted to just flip a coin to pick
as a judge, because two entries both have such merit.

IMHO it’s better to flip than to not have a best in show.

AnimalX and I tied at CC-6 for best in class master and no BIS was given.
When we later spoke, we both agreed we’d rather have the coin flip no
matter which one of us won, as there’s just something ‘uncomplete’ when a
BIS isn’t given.

Ricky

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Pierre,

thanks for your post

so here’s a mental mind teaser that occured from reading it.

Would it be possible to judge a masq. gather the opinion, that for whatever
reason they might have enter master division, no one entry was really up to
what we percieve as master level work
( with the ability , gratefully, to jump class this could happen), but it
would still be the most worthy entry for BIS?

different topic,

I think having at least some judges with lots of experience/knowledge, is
important not only from knowing what has been done in the past ( even if
you don’t hold folks up to that past standard) but also more importantly,
because they would have the general knowlegde of what ‘good’ is

Thats the main reason I didn’t want Caitlin judging. I honestly didn’t want
my 15 year old trying to give an award just because something struck her
fancy, without the overall mindset of all the other criterias we’ve been
discussing.

Her ideas would have been pure and honest, but uneducated.

Ricky

IMHO, today, a committee can not afford to limit itself to local members, nor need it do so, given telecommunications. For example, the Noreascon 4 committee had over 200 members, scattered across the world. Our members in Europe, as well as those on the west coast of this continent, participated actively in planning and organizing a con in Boston, Massachusetts. Some of them even were able and willing to go to Boston for critical on site committee sessions.

There is no reason why a Costume-Con cannot do likewise. For CC 24 and 25, which are in Iowa and Missouri, respectively, I’m the historical masquerade director. I’m in upstate New York. Like a worldcon, a Costume-Con needs the best committee available, not just the best one available locally. The senior policy positions can and probably should be filled by local costumers. However, the specialist positions ought to be filled by those who can do the job, no matter where they’re located. That’s why CC 23 used Sally and company, from the Midwest, for tech in Ogden, Utah.

One concern that committees that are widespread geographically must deal with is the ability of key committee members to visit the venue physically. That’s why Darla went to Ogden to see the theater and report back to the rest of us. As an MD, I need to know what the facilities in Des Moines and St. Louis will be like. At this point, whether or not that means a quick trip to each location, I don’t know.

I probably have more to say on this; however, I’ll have to save it for later.

Byron

—– Original Message —–
From: osierhenry@cs.com<mailto:osierhenry@cs.com>
To: runacc@yahoogroups.com<mailto:runacc@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, May 18, 2005 7:14 PM
Subject: [runacc] Spread out staff? Pro’s & Con’s

One of my staff from CC21 has the opinion that CC staff should not be spread
out and be local. However, it appears that CC23 and CC24 seem to be doing just
fine with a Yahoo group connection. I, personally, believe that a CC can be
run just fine via Yahoo group communications and e-mails to individuals.

I am interested in hearing pro’s and con’s, good and bad about using the
e-mail method, as opposed to keeping staff local and having face-to-face meetings.

Henry

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hi All,
I could not agree more with Byron’s comments below.

With the Internet, there is now the ability to create mailing lists and
websites to keep committee members in touch.
Video conferencing is tool that can be used at meetings where long
distance members can attend even from their own homes.

Byron, could someone who is trusted take a video of the facilities for
CC24 and 25 as a way for you to view what is available till you can
make it out to see them first hand. There could be a list of details
that you want them to capture on the tape.

Oh, and btw HI I’m here as the representative for the NE bid for CC28.

Looking forward to many more discussions with you,

Stephanie Carrigg

CC28 in 2010 in New England

On May 18, 2005, at 9:41 PM, Byron Connell wrote:

> IMHO, today, a committee can not afford to limit itself to local
> members, nor need it do so, given telecommunications.� For example,
> the Noreascon 4 committee had over 200 members, scattered across the
> world.� Our members in Europe, as well as those on the west coast of
> this continent, participated actively in planning and organizing a con
> in Boston, Massachusetts.� Some of them even were able and willing to
> go to Boston for critical on site committee sessions.
>
> There is no reason why a Costume-Con cannot do likewise.� For CC 24
> and 25, which are in Iowa and Missouri, respectively, I’m the
> historical masquerade director.� I’m in upstate New York.� Like a
> worldcon, a Costume-Con needs the best committee available, not just
> the best one available locally.� The senior policy positions can and
> probably should be filled by local costumers.� However, the specialist
> positions ought to be filled by those who can do the job, no matter
> where they’re located.� That’s why CC 23 used Sally and company, from
> the Midwest, for tech in Ogden, Utah.
>
> One concern that committees that are widespread geographically must
> deal with is the ability of key committee members to visit the venue
> physically.� That’s why Darla went to Ogden to see the theater and
> report back to the rest of us.� As an MD, I need to know what the
> facilities in Des Moines and St. Louis will be like.� At this point,
> whether or not that means a quick trip to each location, I don’t know.
>
> I probably have more to say on this; however, I’ll have to save it
> for later.
>
> Byron
>
>
> � —– Original Message —–
> � From: osierhenry@cs.com<mailto:osierhenry@cs.com>
> � To: runacc@yahoogroups.com<mailto:runacc@yahoogroups.com>
> � Sent: Wednesday, May 18, 2005 7:14 PM
> � Subject: [runacc] Spread out staff? Pro’s & Con’s
>
>
> � One of my staff from CC21 has the opinion that CC staff should not
> be spread
> � out and be local. However, it appears that CC23 and CC24 seem to be
> doing just
> � fine with a Yahoo group connection. I, personally, believe that a
> CC can be
> � run just fine via Yahoo group communications and e-mails to
> individuals.
>
> � I am interested in hearing pro’s and con’s, good and bad about
> using the
> � e-mail method, as opposed to keeping staff local and having
> face-to-face meetings.
>
> � Henry
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> View the Document: http://www.Costume-Con.org/procedure/runacc/
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
> � To visit your group on the web, go to:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/runacc/
> �
> � To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> runacc-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> �
> � Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
> Service.
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I respectfully disagree about the position of Tech Director. That’s a position in which expertise, not local residence, is of paramount importance.

Byron

—– Original Message —–
From: osierhenry@cs.com<mailto:osierhenry@cs.com>
To: runacc@yahoogroups.com<mailto:runacc@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, May 18, 2005 8:26 PM
Subject: Re: [runacc] Spread out staff? Pro’s & Con’s

Betsy,
Totally agree on the Must Be Local Positions, and the bank account.
Thanks for the feedback!
Henry

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

There’s a difference between deciding that no entry deserves Best in Show in terms of its overall quality and being unable to decide among several entries equally deserving of the award. BIS out to be withheld if no one deserves it. On the other hand, if there are several entries that could equally be awarded Best in Show, I also favor the coin flip.

Byron

—– Original Message —–
From: Ricky & Karen Dick<mailto:castleb@pulsenet.com>
To: runacc@yahoogroups.com<mailto:runacc@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, May 18, 2005 9:20 PM
Subject: Re: [runacc] More on Judging — Charles
>
>I’ve wondered about this seemingly East Coast phenomenon. Does it still
>occur? I don’t know how I feel about that issue one way or another. I
>suppose it depends on what your policy for what is considered “Best In
>Show”.
>
>Bruce

Also, we all know that sometimes you’re tempted to just flip a coin to pick
as a judge, because two entries both have such merit.

IMHO it’s better to flip than to not have a best in show.

AnimalX and I tied at CC-6 for best in class master and no BIS was given.
When we later spoke, we both agreed we’d rather have the coin flip no
matter which one of us won, as there’s just something ‘uncomplete’ when a
BIS isn’t given.

Ricky

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Yeah, I might agree.
I wouldn’t have years ago, but I learned different.
I saw the CC-21 crew grab one of my guys from our Crimson King group who’d
never been to any con before to rig lights, as he had a theater tech degree
and in some ways lights is lights, a stage is a stage.

That doesn’t mean no info till the last minute, but it’s possible.

Ricky

At 10:05 PM 5/18/2005 -0400, you wrote:

>I respectfully disagree about the position of Tech Director. That’s a
>position in which expertise, not local residence, is of paramount importance.
>
>Byron
>
>
> —– Original Message —–
> From: osierhenry@cs.com<mailto:osierhenry@cs.com>
> To: runacc@yahoogroups.com<mailto:runacc@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Wednesday, May 18, 2005 8:26 PM
> Subject: Re: [runacc] Spread out staff? Pro’s & Con’s
>
>
> Betsy,
> Totally agree on the Must Be Local Positions, and the bank account.
> Thanks for the feedback!
> Henry
>
>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>View the Document:
><http://www.Costume-Con.org/procedure/runacc/>http://www.Costume-Con.org/procedure/runacc/
>
>
>
>
>———-
>Yahoo! Groups Links
> * To visit your group on the web, go to:
> *
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/runacc/>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/runacc/
> *
> * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> *
> <mailto:runacc-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe>runacc-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
> *
> * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the
> <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>Yahoo! Terms of Service.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I wasn’t in on the initial portion of this discussion; however, why should I let that prevent me from joining it now?

I’ve judged at regional, worldcon, and costume-con masquerades. In my opinion, if the judges decide that none of the entries in the master division meet their standards for work in that division, they would be justified in giving no master division awards.

IMHO, the judges have to rely on their experience in deciding on awards. For that reason, I agree with you, Ricky, about using a 15 year old as a judge; he or she is unlikely to have the experience needed to make the necessary decisions. I fully recall my first experience as a judge. It was at a large regional; I had worked backstage for years; and I was in my 50’s. I’d been a judges’ clerk (once). However, I could enter in the novice division and everyone else on the panel was much more experienced at costume design and presentation than I was. I always will be grateful for having been given the opportunity and I made my opinions known; however, that does not mean that I was ready to be a decisive voice in that panel’s decisions.

I guess that I am saying that there ought to be a sensible limit in deciding the level of overall experience needed for participation in a judging panel.

Byron

—– Original Message —–
From: Ricky & Karen Dick<mailto:castleb@pulsenet.com>
To: runacc@yahoogroups.com<mailto:runacc@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, May 18, 2005 9:28 PM
Subject: Re: [runacc] More on Judging

Pierre,

thanks for your post

so here’s a mental mind teaser that occured from reading it.

Would it be possible to judge a masq. gather the opinion, that for whatever
reason they might have enter master division, no one entry was really up to
what we percieve as master level work
( with the ability , gratefully, to jump class this could happen), but it
would still be the most worthy entry for BIS?

different topic,

I think having at least some judges with lots of experience/knowledge, is
important not only from knowing what has been done in the past ( even if
you don’t hold folks up to that past standard) but also more importantly,
because they would have the general knowlegde of what ‘good’ is

Thats the main reason I didn’t want Caitlin judging. I honestly didn’t want
my 15 year old trying to give an award just because something struck her
fancy, without the overall mindset of all the other criterias we’ve been
discussing.

Her ideas would have been pure and honest, but uneducated.

Ricky

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I can’t over emphasize that the Tech Director must be local. The
likelihood of our ever getting a completely equipped theater to play in
again is very slim which means that lighting instruments, sound
equipment, pipe & drape and maybe even stage platforms will have to be
rented locally. The advantage of having a local to arrange this cannot
be overstated

Not only does the facilities/hotel liaison person have to be local but
he/she has to be someone with the available time to touch base with the
hotel at least monthly starting one year out and possibly more
frequently if the hotel changes ownership.

Marty –
Been There, Done That, Read the Book, Saw the Movie, Broke the Coffee
Mug, Copped the Poster, Dubbed the Bootleg (you get the idea) 😉

osierhenry@cs.com wrote:

>One of my staff from CC21 has the opinion that CC staff should not be spread
>out and be local. However, it appears that CC23 and CC24 seem to be doing just
>fine with a Yahoo group connection. I, personally, believe that a CC can be
>run just fine via Yahoo group communications and e-mails to individuals.
>
>I am interested in hearing pro’s and con’s, good and bad about using the
>e-mail method, as opposed to keeping staff local and having face-to-face meetings.
>
>Henry
>
>
>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>
>View the Document: http://www.Costume-Con.org/procedure/runacc/
>Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

Ah, but let me ‘splain.

Ok, I’ll concede that the director doesn’t have to be local, but having
a local tech director means said director can sit in during the process
of hotel contract negotiations.

Why is that important? Well, in theory, the tech director should be
reading the part of the contract specifically related to the power drops
for the performance space. Having the in-person negotiation power can
help avoid nasty surprises later on.

This part of the negotiation process should be stressed – a missed
statement in a hotel contract can cost your con big bucks. I know, from
personal experience.

Betsy

Ricky & Karen Dick wrote:

> Yeah, I might agree.
> I wouldn’t have years ago, but I learned different.
> I saw the CC-21 crew grab one of my guys from our Crimson King group who’d
> never been to any con before to rig lights, as he had a theater tech degree
> and in some ways lights is lights, a stage is a stage.
>
> That doesn’t mean no info till the last minute, but it’s possible.
>
> Ricky
>
>
>
> At 10:05 PM 5/18/2005 -0400, you wrote:
>
>>I respectfully disagree about the position of Tech Director. That’s a
>>position in which expertise, not local residence, is of paramount importance.
>>
>>Byron
>>
>>
>> —– Original Message —–
>> From: osierhenry@cs.com<mailto:osierhenry@cs.com>
>> To: runacc@yahoogroups.com<mailto:runacc@yahoogroups.com>
>> Sent: Wednesday, May 18, 2005 8:26 PM
>> Subject: Re: [runacc] Spread out staff? Pro’s & Con’s
>>
>>
>> Betsy,
>> Totally agree on the Must Be Local Positions, and the bank account.
>> Thanks for the feedback!
>> Henry
>>
>>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>>
>>
>>
>>View the Document:
>><http://www.Costume-Con.org/procedure/runacc/>http://www.Costume-Con.org/procedure/runacc/
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>———-
>>Yahoo! Groups Links
>> * To visit your group on the web, go to:
>> *
>><http://groups.yahoo.com/group/runacc/>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/runacc/
>> *
>> * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
>> *
>><mailto:runacc-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe>runacc-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>>
>> *
>> * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the
>><http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>Yahoo! Terms of Service.
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>
> View the Document: http://www.Costume-Con.org/procedure/runacc/
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

That’s a start. However, ultimately it’s not a substitute for physical presence. Despite maps and photos of the theater in Ogden, and Darla’s report of her visit to the venue, I did not really have a feel for the facility until I got there and could walk from the back of the house through the audience to the stage, find my way on to stage, and examine the back stage facilities. I would like to be able to do so in advance for CC 24 and CC 25 even if I have video and/or photo displays and maps.

In 1991, this was sufficiently important to us as CC 10 SF&F MDs that Tina and I drove to Chicago for Chicon V from Albany, NY, via Lincoln, Nebraska, so we could review the facilities with Pierre and Sandy. (Check the route on a map, sometime; it defines a hairpin turn!)

Byron

—– Original Message —–
From: Stephanie Carrigg<mailto:bada.boom@comcast.net>
To: runacc@yahoogroups.com<mailto:runacc@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, May 18, 2005 9:51 PM
Subject: Re: [runacc] Spread out staff? Pro’s & Con’s

Hi All,
I could not agree more with Byron’s comments below.

Byron, could someone who is trusted take a video of the facilities for
CC24 and 25 as a way for you to view what is available till you can
make it out to see them first hand. There could be a list of details
that you want them to capture on the tape.

Oh, and btw HI I’m here as the representative for the NE bid for CC28.

Looking forward to many more discussions with you,

Stephanie Carrigg

CC28 in 2010 in New England

On May 18, 2005, at 9:41 PM, Byron Connell wrote:

> IMHO, today, a committee can not afford to limit itself to local
> members, nor need it do so, given telecommunications. For example,
> the Noreascon 4 committee had over 200 members, scattered across the
> world. Our members in Europe, as well as those on the west coast of
> this continent, participated actively in planning and organizing a con
> in Boston, Massachusetts. Some of them even were able and willing to
> go to Boston for critical on site committee sessions.
>
> There is no reason why a Costume-Con cannot do likewise. For CC 24
> and 25, which are in Iowa and Missouri, respectively, I’m the
> historical masquerade director. I’m in upstate New York. Like a
> worldcon, a Costume-Con needs the best committee available, not just
> the best one available locally. The senior policy positions can and
> probably should be filled by local costumers. However, the specialist
> positions ought to be filled by those who can do the job, no matter
> where they’re located. That’s why CC 23 used Sally and company, from
> the Midwest, for tech in Ogden, Utah.
>
> One concern that committees that are widespread geographically must
> deal with is the ability of key committee members to visit the venue
> physically. That’s why Darla went to Ogden to see the theater and
> report back to the rest of us. As an MD, I need to know what the
> facilities in Des Moines and St. Louis will be like. At this point,
> whether or not that means a quick trip to each location, I don’t know.
>
> I probably have more to say on this; however, I’ll have to save it
> for later.
>
> Byron
>
>
> —– Original Message —–
> From: osierhenry@cs.com<mailto:osierhenry@cs.com<mailto:osierhenry@cs.com<mailto:osierhenry@cs.com>>
> To: runacc@yahoogroups.com<mailto:runacc@yahoogroups.com<mailto:runacc@yahoogroups.com<mailto:runacc@yahoogroups.com>>
> Sent: Wednesday, May 18, 2005 7:14 PM
> Subject: [runacc] Spread out staff? Pro’s & Con’s
>
>
> One of my staff from CC21 has the opinion that CC staff should not
> be spread
> out and be local. However, it appears that CC23 and CC24 seem to be
> doing just
> fine with a Yahoo group connection. I, personally, believe that a
> CC can be
> run just fine via Yahoo group communications and e-mails to
> individuals.
>
> I am interested in hearing pro’s and con’s, good and bad about
> using the
> e-mail method, as opposed to keeping staff local and having
> face-to-face meetings.
>
> Henry

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Marty,
Interesting,
Are we just spoiled with techno fandom that I think they can roll out of
bed and set up and call a good show LOL?
I guess I thought the hotel liason did the things you mentioned.
Which of course is why YOU are handling the Hotel and Ballroom stuff for
the CC-27 bid 😉

Ricky

At 10:40 PM 5/18/2005 -0400, you wrote:

>I can’t over emphasize that the Tech Director must be local. The
>likelihood of our ever getting a completely equipped theater to play in
>again is very slim which means that lighting instruments, sound
>equipment, pipe & drape and maybe even stage platforms will have to be
>rented locally. The advantage of having a local to arrange this cannot
>be overstated
>
>Not only does the facilities/hotel liaison person have to be local but
>he/she has to be someone with the available time to touch base with the
>hotel at least monthly starting one year out and possibly more
>frequently if the hotel changes ownership.
>
>Marty –

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Byron,

You’re welcome to come to DemiCon, July 29-31st. It’ll be in the same
hotel as CC-24. In fact, after this year, we’ll have held three
masquerades and six theatrical shows with the stage, lights, and sound
that we’ll have next Memorial Day.

Les

—

Live, never to be ashamed if everything you do is published around the
world. Even if what is published is not true. — Richard Bach

On May 18, 2005, at 9:47 PM, Byron Connell wrote:

> That’s a start. However, ultimately it’s not a substitute for
> physical presence. Despite maps and photos of the theater in Ogden,
> and Darla’s report of her visit to the venue, I did not really have a
> feel for the facility until I got there and could walk from the back
> of the house through the audience to the stage, find my way on to
> stage, and examine the back stage facilities. I would like to be able
> to do so in advance for CC 24 and CC 25 even if I have video and/or
> photo displays and maps.
>
> In 1991, this was sufficiently important to us as CC 10 SF&F MDs that
> Tina and I drove to Chicago for Chicon V from Albany, NY, via Lincoln,
> Nebraska, so we could review the facilities with Pierre and Sandy.
> (Check the route on a map, sometime; it defines a hairpin turn!)
>
> Byron
>

Les —

Thanks. I am obligated to be in Boston that weekend, however.

Byron

—– Original Message —–
From: Les Roth<mailto:les@trans-iowa.org>
To: runacc@yahoogroups.com<mailto:runacc@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, May 18, 2005 10:55 PM
Subject: Re: [runacc] Spread out staff? Pro’s & Con’s

Byron,

You’re welcome to come to DemiCon, July 29-31st. It’ll be in the same
hotel as CC-24. In fact, after this year, we’ll have held three
masquerades and six theatrical shows with the stage, lights, and sound
that we’ll have next Memorial Day.

Les

—

Live, never to be ashamed if everything you do is published around the
world. Even if what is published is not true. — Richard Bach

On May 18, 2005, at 9:47 PM, Byron Connell wrote:

> That’s a start. However, ultimately it’s not a substitute for
> physical presence. Despite maps and photos of the theater in Ogden,
> and Darla’s report of her visit to the venue, I did not really have a
> feel for the facility until I got there and could walk from the back
> of the house through the audience to the stage, find my way on to
> stage, and examine the back stage facilities. I would like to be able
> to do so in advance for CC 24 and CC 25 even if I have video and/or
> photo displays and maps.
>
> In 1991, this was sufficiently important to us as CC 10 SF&F MDs that
> Tina and I drove to Chicago for Chicon V from Albany, NY, via Lincoln,
> Nebraska, so we could review the facilities with Pierre and Sandy.
> (Check the route on a map, sometime; it defines a hairpin turn!)
>
> Byron

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I can’t see how that could happen, but if you have to have a BIS…

I see your point about Caitlin. Depending on the number of folks on your
panel, you definitely need experienced judges in the mix to see stuff the
less experienced would not…

Bruce

—– Original Message —–
From: “Ricky & Karen Dick” <castleb@pulsenet.com>

>
> Would it be possible to judge a masq. gather the opinion, that for
whatever
> reason they might have enter master division, no one entry was really up
to
> what we percieve as master level work
> ( with the ability , gratefully, to jump class this could happen), but it
> would still be the most worthy entry for BIS?
>
> different topic,
>
>
> I think having at least some judges with lots of experience/knowledge, is
> important not only from knowing what has been done in the past ( even if
> you don’t hold folks up to that past standard) but also more importantly,
> because they would have the general knowlegde of what ‘good’ is
>
> Thats the main reason I didn’t want Caitlin judging. I honestly didn’t
want
> my 15 year old trying to give an award just because something struck her
> fancy, without the overall mindset of all the other criterias we’ve been
> discussing.
>
> Her ideas would have been pure and honest, but uneducated.
>
> Ricky
>
>
>
>
>
> View the Document: http://www.Costume-Con.org/procedure/runacc/
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>

Yes, tf brings a lot of the equipment and has deliberately trained
different people in different jobs so that they can appear to work
miracles, but at every con pipe & drape, sandbags, dimmer packs and most
of the lighting instruments are rented locally. I remember with dread
the Lunacon when one of the boards (light I think) went out about two
hours before the show and Fuzz had to drive from Rye to somewhere on the
New Jersey Turnpike to meet someone from the rental house and make a
swap. To put it mildly, it wasn’t pretty. This is why I’ve already
recruited Larry.

^M^

Ricky & Karen Dick wrote:

>Marty,
>Interesting,
>Are we just spoiled with techno fandom that I think they can roll out of
>bed and set up and call a good show LOL?
>I guess I thought the hotel liason did the things you mentioned.
>Which of course is why YOU are handling the Hotel and Ballroom stuff for
>the CC-27 bid 😉
>
>Ricky
>
>At 10:40 PM 5/18/2005 -0400, you wrote:
>
>
>>I can’t over emphasize that the Tech Director must be local. The
>>likelihood of our ever getting a completely equipped theater to play in
>>again is very slim which means that lighting instruments, sound
>>equipment, pipe & drape and maybe even stage platforms will have to be
>>rented locally. The advantage of having a local to arrange this cannot
>>be overstated
>>
>>Not only does the facilities/hotel liaison person have to be local but
>>he/she has to be someone with the available time to touch base with the
>>hotel at least monthly starting one year out and possibly more
>>frequently if the hotel changes ownership.
>>
>>Marty –
>>
>>
>
>
>
>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>
>View the Document: http://www.Costume-Con.org/procedure/runacc/
>Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I think it gives the audience a bit more of a satisfactory end to the
proceedings, also.

Bruce

—– Original Message —–
From: “Ricky & Karen Dick” <castleb@pulsenet.com>
To: <runacc@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, May 18, 2005 8:20 PM
Subject: Re: [runacc] More on Judging — Charles

>
> >
> >
> >
> >I’ve wondered about this seemingly East Coast phenomenon. Does it still
> >occur? I don’t know how I feel about that issue one way or another. I
> >suppose it depends on what your policy for what is considered “Best In
> >Show”.
> >
> >Bruce
>
>
> Also, we all know that sometimes you’re tempted to just flip a coin to
pick
> as a judge, because two entries both have such merit.
>
> IMHO it’s better to flip than to not have a best in show.
>
> AnimalX and I tied at CC-6 for best in class master and no BIS was given.
> When we later spoke, we both agreed we’d rather have the coin flip no
> matter which one of us won, as there’s just something ‘uncomplete’ when a
> BIS isn’t given.
>
> Ricky
>
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>
> View the Document: http://www.Costume-Con.org/procedure/runacc/
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>

>Ricky and Marty commented on the roles of Hotel Liaison and Tech Director.

My two cents from the Ogden experience is that both jobs _could_ be done by
the same local person if that person knew both legal contracts and
electrical contracting. 😉

The Hotel Liaison needs to know about attrition, average room nights, and
Food/Beverage service. The Tech Director needs to know about 220 Service
and the needs for setting up a safe, usable stage. These don’t often happen
to be skills of the same person–it wasn’t here in Utah.

As I understand it from Betsy’s experience, such electrical and stage needs
are extra cost items (often _very_ extra cost). Acting as Hotel Liaison
here, I would not have had a clue as to what to ask for or about.

The worst is to _assume_ that the hotel can provide enough power and has
the available equipment to set up a stage, sound, or lights–which is a key
reason why it has to be a local person check on these as Tech or Hotel Liaison.

Dave Doering

The tech at CC-23 was an interesting example..

Since the theater could be described in much detail, well before-hand, we had a couple of things that were done.

First, since we knew we were understaffed for CC-23 locally, and the masquerades were so time-intensive, we were glad to be able to assign the job to out-of-area staff.

Then we gave the web-site of the theater description, and video taped the site.

And Darla came in, and looked it over.

There were some problems, and may partly be due to this being the first event we have done of this nature done here. There was a tendency to have each of the out-of-area people seemingly get quite nervous if they thought we were getting into their area. In general, the MD’s (although they each have there own personal interactive style), wanted full control of the show. But there were things that they had not always antipated, due to this particular venue. I was trying to help tech, and do Theater liason — plus I do have lighting experience. One simple option we had available was candy consessions — something that was easy to answer, but a new unfamiliar option. Then there was pro- and fan photography. More impact, and requires meeting the needs of the photographers (which was finally worked out with the photographers, by me, with I assume Byron and the MDs, as well). An important consideration was the cross-back, behind the stage curtain, and whether there was going to be a colored cyc (something that is not normally available — but might have been nice.) This seems to have been decided only after Henry and Tech arrived and looked over the site, but it may have been useful for costumers to know in advance (I still don’t really know if there was a need or desire for the cyc.
At one point, it was quite awkward, on Sat morning, it looked like Kevin’s Sunday half-time presentation could use a follow-spot, Tech believed one was not available (presumably since Henry had said that one would not be used), but since I was familiar with the site and staff, I believed that a follow-spot could be available. I felt I had done my homework, but I was essentially told I was not tech, and to go away. Henry was not on location at the time, and I felt like I had at least made my point-of-view known — So I had the rest of the convention to attend to, and by the time the masquerades were presented, it appeared that fan-tech and the competant theater crew had worked out good lighting. But only barely — It might not have turned out that way, given the communication mis-hap.
……
So, a long story, but it points out for me what was the most annoying part of running this con (if I ignore the ones that I may have self-induced — such as the program-book rush — but that’s a different story).

I just felt like the level of communication could have been more comfortable and respectable — I feel like if something stifles communication, it risks un-needed problems.

Charles

—– Original Message —–

At 10:05 PM 5/18/2005 -0400, you wrote:
>I respectfully disagree about the position of Tech Director. That’s a
>position in which expertise, not local residence, is of paramount importance.
>
>Byron
>
>
> —– Original Message —–
> From: osierhenry@cs.com<mailto:osierhenry@cs.com>
> To: runacc@yahoogroups.com<mailto:runacc@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Wednesday, May 18, 2005 8:26 PM
> Subject: Re: [runacc] Spread out staff? Pro’s & Con’s
>
>
> Betsy,
> Totally agree on the Must Be Local Positions, and the bank account.
> Thanks for the feedback!
> Henry
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Pro reasons for spreading out the staff:

Involving various fannish groups/chapters encourages attendance from those
groups. Pulling just from local resources gives distant cities less reason
to come to a site.

Spreading the wealth allows for picking the very best staff. Two years ago,
many of us in Utah simply didn’t know about others. By setting the policy
to go look outside the community, we ended up with a much better event,
even though it was sometimes hard to do the asking (sorry about that Byron!)

Con for not spreading out the staff:

It is hard to hold someone accountable for their work or progress. Yes,
there’s phone calls and e-mail, but people can choose not to respond. You
don’t want to be a pain in the butt by constantly pinging the same people
to hear from them.

(This goes back to the earlier discussion about track records. As chair, I
can decide that I haven’t heard from someone because they _are_ doing their
job, or I can fear that they _aren’t_. Who wants to have a con chair
constantly calling and in effect, suggesting they simply aren’t doing their
job?)

Dave Doering

Just a comment on what Dave said. It is very important that someone on the con knows the electricity end, and can talk to someone like the engineer at the hotel. Otherwise, the general hotel staff seems to not know the difference between an amp, a volt, and a watt.

Charles

—– Original Message —–
From: David Doering
<snip>

The worst is to _assume_ that the hotel can provide enough power and has
the available equipment to set up a stage, sound, or lights–which is a key
reason why it has to be a local person check on these as Tech or Hotel Liaison.

Dave Doering

View the Document: http://www.Costume-Con.org/procedure/runacc/

——————————————————————————
Yahoo! Groups Links

a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/runacc/

b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
runacc-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

The more committee people you have “on the ground” locally (or within easy
driving distance so they can attend meetings or see the hotel if needs be),
the better.

When we did Costume-Cons in southern and northern California in the 80’s,
finding local committee people was not an issue. I suspect that finding
committee people on the I-95 corridor from DC to Boston isn’t a huge
problem, either. Away from both coasts, you don’t have the same
concentration of population, so you sometimes have to go outside your local
area for committee people.

Outside committee people are good for things that can be run by “remote
control,” like the Fashion Design Contest, the Doll Contest, Fashion Folio,
Publications, etc. Wherever possible, exhibits, dealers, and the the staged
events really need local people working on them (or people willing to visit
the facilities one or more times before the con to check parameters). It’s
hard to rely on information gotten through an intermediary or supplied by
the hotel. (That’s where CC-21’s stage size went so wrong.) Hotel
literature has been notorious for not mentioning the very things you need
to know the most–like where the electric sockets are in the Dealer’s Room,
Exhibit space, and ballrooms; the true dimensions of the tables you’re
getting for the dealers; how many of the stage risers are actually in
useable condition; and oh, by the way, there’s a bulkhead sticking out into
the room where you planned to squeak in that last dealer table.

Everyone dreads going to interminable meetings. Keep the local meetings as
short as possible. Deal with issues via email or Yahoogroup or phone. Don’t
force people to go to meetings as long as they keep you informed and are
progressing with their job assignments.

–Karen

At 07:14 PM 5/18/2005 -0400, you wrote:

>One of my staff from CC21 has the opinion that CC staff should not be spread
>out and be local. However, it appears that CC23 and CC24 seem to be doing
>just
>fine with a Yahoo group connection. I, personally, believe that a CC can be
>run just fine via Yahoo group communications and e-mails to individuals.
>
>I am interested in hearing pro’s and con’s, good and bad about using the
>e-mail method, as opposed to keeping staff local and having face-to-face
>meetings.
>
>Henry
>
>
>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>View the Document:
><http://www.Costume-Con.org/procedure/runacc/>http://www.Costume-Con.org/procedure/runacc/
>
>
>
>
>———-
>Yahoo! Groups Links
> * To visit your group on the web, go to:
> *
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/runacc/>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/runacc/
> *
> * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> *
> <mailto:runacc-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe>runacc-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
> *
> * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the
> <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>Yahoo! Terms of Service.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I’ll chime in on this one, being one of the out of town tech crew for CC-23. Communication was definitely a problem in many ways regarding tech for the CC-23 venue. The confusion regarding awards and announcements has already been addressed. Another example, we were told we would be responsible for running the light and sound equipment. I double, in fact triple checked on this because I just couldn’t believe that a real theater would let just any body touch their stuff. As it turns out I was right. Now this is a case where it worked out in our favor as I see it, but still an example of how wires were crossed.

Charles is correct in that there were many options the theater had to offer that went unused. However, this was not due to lack of knowledge on the part of the tech crew. First and foremost we honored the wishes of the MDs. The cyc is a prime example.

This was listed as available and it had been our intention to use this option. As Byron said it isn’t until you actually get into the facility that all the parameters become clear. The white cyc that we were planning to use was the last in the hanging order putting it less than two feet from the back wall. If we had used this there would have been no cross over available. There was a black cyc about 5′ from the wall. We also felt this was a fairly narrow cross over. The theater might have been able to relocate the drops if we’d realized the placement issue earlier. By Friday afternoon it was too late for that. The consensus of the MD and tech was that using the mid-stage traveler as back drop was the best solution at that point.

While there were all kinds of lighting options available one problem is that many contestants are not experienced enough to know what to ask for. Yes, we had a very experienced and knowledgeable theater crew, but there were also the time constraints to consider. It would be great if all entries had all the time they wanted to experiment with lighting and blocking. As it was we had 33 entries to fit into 24 time slots on Saturday so we couldn’t even give each group 10 minutes.

Much time was spent as things started up Saturday as the very competent (and the much too nice) theater crew tried to accommodate all the requests coming from every corner. Once a clear line of communication for requests was established we finally began making forward progress. However we were more than 2 1/2 hours behind by that point. A default lighting scheme helped keep things moving. Whenever a contestant asked for special lighting or other options efforts were made to accommodate them. We did manage to catch up some time and finished about 20 minutes behind schedule.

A good thing too because believe it or not this theater was a union house and at 5:30 all the theater people went to dinner no if, ands or buts. Running over was not an option. This was a piece of information we did not have until that very moment. This was certainly knowledge we all needed to make informed decisions. Fortunately this one didn’t snag us, but it could have if we hadn’t been able to make up time. I could just imagine the messages both here and on the D list if several of the entries didn’t get tech rehearsal because the crew was on mandatory break.

Chris, the theater director, was running the light board and he did a lot of very subtle effects on every entry to show them at their best. A feat that is more miraculous than it seems on the surface. Most contestants did not wear anything approaching the color of their entry let alone bring any of their costume to their tech rehearsal. So the lighting scheme for most was an educated guess. All in all Chris did an awesome job handling all the curve balls we threw him and managing some temperamental equipment.

The theater used a computer program to implement the lighting so changes on the fly were not always possible. At best they could skip an entry. Adding something was not an option once the program sequence was launched. This was an issue on Sunday when Elaine wanted to do a mid-stage entry in her MC costume. Unfortunately, we didn’t know she was going to do that.

Another example of surprise the audience not the crew even with something seemingly ordinary. As tech I learned to ask even the MCs what they want to do on an entrance. So it is all a learning process. That’s not to say we didn’t flub some cues because we did. It happens. The tech forms the MDs used were great for collecting information from the entries. However, they were not as practical to use for calling cues. An abbreviated version containing only the relevant information for each entry would be a better option. Again a learning opportunity for us all.

At any rate these are issues that will always exist on one level or another. Each venue has its pros and cons. Just because an option is available doesn’t mean it should be used. Case in point live flame on stage and the fly system both “available” at the CC-23 venue. Certainly a professional company with the proper permits and many weeks of rehearsal time could take advantage of these options, but wisely the powers that be choose not to use these options with such a mixed bag of experience levels who only had minutes of stage time.

The term tech rehearsal seems somewhat misleading to some. This is a time for the tech crew to get their stuff right. The contestants should show up on time, prepared with their music ready to play and their presentation ready to go. It is not a time for the entry to rehearse per se. But oops I’ve started another topic.

Whether in town or out of town good communication is the key to success. Expectations and responsibilities should be clearly outlined for each staff position and then those parameters should be respected by all. The kind of stuff we’re doing here is a good start. No one person no matter where they are from can match the knowledge and experience we are depositing in this hive brain.

Sallie

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Let me try to take these one at a time…

I know when I talked to the theater a few years ago, I tried to determine at that time if we could use our own crew — for various reasons. One is that tech is part of this art-form, and we(tech) have so few chances to practice it. (and I was glad when Sallie et-al were able to come out, because they would be able to use whatever they gained here, in future productions) Also, I didn’t quite trust professionals to “understand” our art — maybe that’s based on those “professional” videographers that don’t know how to video-tape belly-dancers — the ones fresh out of video-art-school. (In CC-23, I thought the Pro-staff did very well).

In talking to the theater a few years ago, it sounded like they would not have any problems sitting with us, and letting us run lights, sound, and stage — which I’m sure we had the talent and training to do. Nothing I ever heard since then ever indicated that they would have a problem with that, although I don’t recall going into a lot of specific detail in the past few months. I do know that they wound up putting two staff on stage, plus the light and sound person — which I think duplicated what we(Sallie, et al) were supplying, and they did not make it clear to us that they were putting on such a large crew (by our point of view). I thought that I understood the contract to mean just a sound, and light person. (and I still think that’s what the “contract” meant). They never told us that they would be using four people. (a definite mis-communication — but not due to Sallie, or Henry)

I don’t quite know who-all Sallie checked with about getting permission for the fan-tech crew to run things, but that was the correct thing to do. Check, and double-check. And I should have done so myself, in the last few months leading to the event, but I did talk to them about whether we could bring in our own computer (for sound), and use it — I thought it was clear that it would be our fan-staff running it.
……………………
That Sallie (et al) was getting direction from the MD’s, is what I understood. But my impression is that Henry had not adequately prepared in understanding what using cyc (or follow-spots) entailed. I understood very well (a few months before the event) that the current cyc position would need to be moved forward (to create a cross-path) — either tipped forward with lead bricks at the bottom, or physically transferred forward. Pushing the bottom out would have been pretty easy, just do it, and then re-set the cyc-lighting (and stage lights). Bringing all the drops forward (one black to prevent air-drafting, one white cyc, one black scrim) would have required additional man power. (I did wonder what that would cost — “you can get anything you want — how much do you want to spend?”)

I talked to henry about a week before the con, but his brain was fried from packing, and I didn’t think he wanted to go over the cyc decisions at that time. It sounded to me like he wanted to come out to Utah early, check things out, and then decide. If we had simply warned the theater that we would have needed extra help on Fri. (or Sat morning), they would have made arrangements to be able to do the change-over. I think the narrow cross-back would have worked, as well, but I don’t think I could have known that before the event. I think it was on Friday that someone told me that the cyc-cross-back was just like what I saw — not very informative, since by Saturday, it had completely changed.

My impression was that Henry (and Darla) had decided against using follow spots, based on the general experiences of previous masquerades — that it tends to “flatten” the performance, is distractive to most entrees (a “softer” look is better), and if the spots are too low, tend to blind the contestants — as well as requiring additional tech skills and time. So in my notes to the theater, I told them to not expect to use follow-spots, except for “specials” (like half-time).

I was not really informed about the either of the half-times, or the Sat. “Bond” intro. And I thought I was part of the Theater-Tech liason. It was Kevin’s half-time where I thought the follow-spot would be most useful (and was eventually used).

So my impression is that Henry tended to go with whatever Darla had decided, without carefully thinking it through (but I admit I not have full discussion with Henry going into this).

But part of my concern about going into the event, is that I did ask (on-line on runacc) does anybody have input on the Theater? What do they want? I heard nothing, from anyone. I did inquire with Al (local — FFS & Single Pattern).
………………..
I’m not sure what all the theater experience is for other costumers, but when I look at the local entrees, most have enough theater back-ground to understand something about what lighting they want. If we have the opportunity to use technical equipment, and we are expecting to attract theater-type costumers (and I think we should), we should be able to help instruct costumers in understanding lighting — not just repeating that they “don’t understand”. Many of our master costumers have been on stage many times now, after-all.
……………..
I think Sallie is correct — that not all things are practical (such as flying, or flames), even if possible. They could only allow 10 minutes per entry stage time (including talking to the crew). That they even succeeded in going through the 33 entrees on Sat. is a testament to everyone’s (including costumers) professionalism.

But the “Bond” intro did involve more than 10 minutes of set-up and rehearsal — perhaps comparable (but cheaper) than flying.
……………….

I did not understand that the theater was union, and I thought someone told it was not. I can check this, but it could have been union staff, but not “union-house” (and I do not have experience in this department). I can see why fan-tech would have needed to know that pro-tech needed to leave at 5:30 for dinner, and I’m sorry that I/we did not check that. (we did have a tentative schedule written up years earlier, but it had not been reviewed. In my mind, if we needed to run over-time, that perhaps the house-manager could have remained, and by that time the fan-crew could have stayed over, by bringing in dinner (and Carl and I did bring lunch in Saturday). I admit, there’s too much assumption in that thinking.
………
There was at least one entry on Sat. (Succubus) and Sunday that did use the over-head spot. This is an option that I tried to explain to Sallie on Sat. as being available. But at that time she was still going by assumptions that the MD had said no spots. When they were used in the evening show, I thought they were very appropriate. It would have taken the MD’s just about half-an-hour to go through this with the Theater (Chris). And then they would have been better able to discuss this with fan-tech (fan-tech was the interface between Theater, and Fan). And as I said, Henry seemed to be absent during Saturday morning, when the final tech was being implemented.
………………….
And repeating myself, I was glad that the fan-tech group was able to come out here and practice their art, and hopefully will be able to use and spread what-ever they learned here.

Charles

—– Original Message —–
From: Greg Abba
To: runacc@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, May 19, 2005 2:12 AM
Subject: Re: [runacc] Spread out staff? Pro’s & Con’s (Tech)

I’ll chime in on this one, being one of the out of town tech crew for CC-23. Communication was definitely a problem in many ways regarding tech for the CC-23 venue. The confusion regarding awards and announcements has already been addressed. Another example, we were told we would be responsible for running the light and sound equipment. I double, in fact triple checked on this because I just couldn’t believe that a real theater would let just any body touch their stuff. As it turns out I was right. Now this is a case where it worked out in our favor as I see it, but still an example of how wires were crossed.

Charles is correct in that there were many options the theater had to offer that went unused. However, this was not due to lack of knowledge on the part of the tech crew. First and foremost we honored the wishes of the MDs. The cyc is a prime example.

This was listed as available and it had been our intention to use this option. As Byron said it isn’t until you actually get into the facility that all the parameters become clear. The white cyc that we were planning to use was the last in the hanging order putting it less than two feet from the back wall. If we had used this there would have been no cross over available. There was a black cyc about 5′ from the wall. We also felt this was a fairly narrow cross over. The theater might have been able to relocate the drops if we’d realized the placement issue earlier. By Friday afternoon it was too late for that. The consensus of the MD and tech was that using the mid-stage traveler as back drop was the best solution at that point.

While there were all kinds of lighting options available one problem is that many contestants are not experienced enough to know what to ask for. Yes, we had a very experienced and knowledgeable theater crew, but there were also the time constraints to consider. It would be great if all entries had all the time they wanted to experiment with lighting and blocking. As it was we had 33 entries to fit into 24 time slots on Saturday so we couldn’t even give each group 10 minutes.

Much time was spent as things started up Saturday as the very competent (and the much too nice) theater crew tried to accommodate all the requests coming from every corner. Once a clear line of communication for requests was established we finally began making forward progress. However we were more than 2 1/2 hours behind by that point. A default lighting scheme helped keep things moving. Whenever a contestant asked for special lighting or other options efforts were made to accommodate them. We did manage to catch up some time and finished about 20 minutes behind schedule.

A good thing too because believe it or not this theater was a union house and at 5:30 all the theater people went to dinner no if, ands or buts. Running over was not an option. This was a piece of information we did not have until that very moment. This was certainly knowledge we all needed to make informed decisions. Fortunately this one didn’t snag us, but it could have if we hadn’t been able to make up time. I could just imagine the messages both here and on the D list if several of the entries didn’t get tech rehearsal because the crew was on mandatory break.

Chris, the theater director, was running the light board and he did a lot of very subtle effects on every entry to show them at their best. A feat that is more miraculous than it seems on the surface. Most contestants did not wear anything approaching the color of their entry let alone bring any of their costume to their tech rehearsal. So the lighting scheme for most was an educated guess. All in all Chris did an awesome job handling all the curve balls we threw him and managing some temperamental equipment.

The theater used a computer program to implement the lighting so changes on the fly were not always possible. At best they could skip an entry. Adding something was not an option once the program sequence was launched. This was an issue on Sunday when Elaine wanted to do a mid-stage entry in her MC costume. Unfortunately, we didn’t know she was going to do that.

Another example of surprise the audience not the crew even with something seemingly ordinary. As tech I learned to ask even the MCs what they want to do on an entrance. So it is all a learning process. That’s not to say we didn’t flub some cues because we did. It happens. The tech forms the MDs used were great for collecting information from the entries. However, they were not as practical to use for calling cues. An abbreviated version containing only the relevant information for each entry would be a better option. Again a learning opportunity for us all.

At any rate these are issues that will always exist on one level or another. Each venue has its pros and cons. Just because an option is available doesn’t mean it should be used. Case in point live flame on stage and the fly system both “available” at the CC-23 venue. Certainly a professional company with the proper permits and many weeks of rehearsal time could take advantage of these options, but wisely the powers that be choose not to use these options with such a mixed bag of experience levels who only had minutes of stage time.

The term tech rehearsal seems somewhat misleading to some. This is a time for the tech crew to get their stuff right. The contestants should show up on time, prepared with their music ready to play and their presentation ready to go. It is not a time for the entry to rehearse per se. But oops I’ve started another topic.

Whether in town or out of town good communication is the key to success. Expectations and responsibilities should be clearly outlined for each staff position and then those parameters should be respected by all. The kind of stuff we’re doing here is a good start. No one person no matter where they are from can match the knowledge and experience we are depositing in this hive brain.

Sallie

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hi!

Being a tech theatre geek, I could have told people going in that the
cyc would be at the far back of the theatre by default. Because it has
to be anchored and tightened, they don’t want it fixed closer to the
front or the majority of the stage will be lost. As has already been
stated, you lose the crossover space. While it is possible for actors in
costume to use two feet of crossover space behind the cyc, it’s a slow,
painful process, unless you want to cause ripples across the fabric as
you go (even with the most taut of rigging, this still happens).

Tech rehearsals may be misnamed, but there’s not really a better way to
describe them. Generally speaking, they do follow a classical theatrical
tech rehearsal, because that’s when the tech crew gets to use the stage,
the lights, and the costumes all together before the actual run of a
play or recital (which is really more like what we’re doing).

The problem is a perception thing. And it can be cured by providing a
separate rehearsal space for the contestants, away from the main stage
space.

That space should be made available as part of the planning process when
the hotel spaces are assigned. It’s not clear to me that this kind of
space was provided at CC23 (I didn’t compete and wasn’t paying
attention), but if it isn’t already a part of the space allotments for
24 on up, you may wish to reconsider the room layout and find a way to
include it. Both the tech crew and the contestants will thank you later
for it.

Betsy

>
>The problem is a perception thing. And it can be cured by providing a
>separate rehearsal space for the contestants, away from the main stage
>space.
>
>That space should be made available as part of the planning process when
>the hotel spaces are assigned. It’s not clear to me that this kind of
>space was provided at CC23

We brought a 50 ft tape measure with us, and ,marked out the stage as
stated in the pr’s in the side parking lot ( near where the panels were).

Felt a lot like being ten years old again and playing kick ball in the
street and the constant cry of CAR!!

as we would stop and start over.

Ricky

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

On May 19, 2005, at 2:02 PM, Ricky & Karen Dick wrote:

>> The problem is a perception thing. And it can be cured by providing a
>> separate rehearsal space for the contestants, away from the main stage
>> space.
>>
>> That space should be made available as part of the planning process
>> when
>> the hotel spaces are assigned. It’s not clear to me that this kind of
>> space was provided at CC23
>
>
> We brought a 50 ft tape measure with us, and ,marked out the stage as
> stated in the pr’s in the side parking lot ( near where the panels
> were).

If the green room isn’t being used for other purposes during the day,
it’s a great place to mark out a tape stage. That wouldn’t have been
possible at Atlanta (it was programming space during the day) but would
have been in Ogden or Chicago.

—
andy trembley, Bitchy Design Queen – http://www.bovil.com/
San Jose, CA – ’72 R75/5 ’86 R100 (mine) – ’92 K75sa ’03 R1150R
(Kevin’s)
…remaining .sig trimmed for better message/.sig ratio

For CC-24 we already have a space set aside for rehearsal in the green
room.

Our usable stage size will be 30 feet wide and 13 feet deep. Detailed
floor plans will be on the website soon.

Les

—

Live, never to be ashamed if everything you do is published around the
world. Even if what is published is not true. — Richard Bach

On May 19, 2005, at 9:51 AM, Betsy Delaney wrote:

> That space should be made available as part of the planning process
> when
> the hotel spaces are assigned. It’s not clear to me that this kind of
> space was provided at CC23 (I didn’t compete and wasn’t paying
> attention), but if it isn’t already a part of the space allotments for
> 24 on up, you may wish to reconsider the room layout and find a way to
> include it. Both the tech crew and the contestants will thank you later
> for it.

First, as the theater described to me, the ripple of air in a crossover space is usually diminished by using a heavy black drop behind (between the cyc and the person crossing) the cyc. But yes, by the time you put in the heavy curtain, the cyc, space for lighting the cyc (either in front or behind) and then maybe a black scrim in front, it will use up stage space. The stage was deep enough that only “Acension” would have had problems — and they would have been able to manage, if enough lead time had been given.

I thought that was one of the presentations rehearsing in the parking lot — well, at first I thought it was a LARP. I had wanted to use a large open ballroom — taped out with stage size — as a physical rehearsal area. When we found out that those had been rented, I tried to make the smaller (programming) rooms available, such as Friday morning, and Friday evening/night, as listed in pocket program. I would presume that those times were adequate for the groups interested. In addition, I did not arrange for the chairs to be moved to the side, nor did I communicate such availability to the masquerade directors. Which would have been a good idea, to make such space fully usable. In addition, we might have been able to have a sound system available. (I did try to set up the DVD player in Juniper with speakers for CD’s, but instead I wound up running the audio output to the TV, instead — I needed one more audio cable.)

The point was, I did expect people to want rehearsal space, but my first choice (the large ballroom) was not available as of a few months before the con — and we didn’t really have the budget to rent that extra space (although with an extra 10 or 20 people, we would have).

I would suggest making an interest in such space a request, and then either it may be planned for, or what space that could be made available could be checked with your schedule. The MD’s were concentrating on the Theater, and in Darla’s case, all the pre-judging required, as well.

Charles

—– Original Message —–
From: Betsy Delaney
To: runacc@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, May 19, 2005 8:51 AM
Subject: [runacc] Tech rehearsals from a geek point of view

Hi!

Being a tech theatre geek, I could have told people going in that the
cyc would be at the far back of the theatre by default. Because it has
to be anchored and tightened, they don’t want it fixed closer to the
front or the majority of the stage will be lost. As has already been
stated, you lose the crossover space. While it is possible for actors in
costume to use two feet of crossover space behind the cyc, it’s a slow,
painful process, unless you want to cause ripples across the fabric as
you go (even with the most taut of rigging, this still happens).

Tech rehearsals may be misnamed, but there’s not really a better way to
describe them. Generally speaking, they do follow a classical theatrical
tech rehearsal, because that’s when the tech crew gets to use the stage,
the lights, and the costumes all together before the actual run of a
play or recital (which is really more like what we’re doing).

The problem is a perception thing. And it can be cured by providing a
separate rehearsal space for the contestants, away from the main stage
space.

That space should be made available as part of the planning process when
the hotel spaces are assigned. It’s not clear to me that this kind of
space was provided at CC23 (I didn’t compete and wasn’t paying
attention), but if it isn’t already a part of the space allotments for
24 on up, you may wish to reconsider the room layout and find a way to
include it. Both the tech crew and the contestants will thank you later
for it.

Betsy

View the Document: http://www.Costume-Con.org/procedure/runacc/

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a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Which is exactly what I have just done, on this list.

Note: I believe strongly that, because the competitions are such an
integral part of the Costume-Con experience, and because the tech poses
so many challenges, this should not be an option but an accepted practice.

I also agree with Andy – Chicago had such a rehearsal space. I know
because I helped tape out the stage outline. The greenroom is a very
good space for this sort of thing, and it doesn’t need to be made
available at all times, either. If the space is used during programming,
just give contestants access to it after hours. The space does NOT have
to be dedicated to that use.

Betsy

Charles wrote:

> I would suggest making an interest in such space a request, and then either it may be planned for, or what space that could be made available could be checked with your schedule. The MD’s were concentrating on the Theater, and in Darla’s case, all the pre-judging required, as well.
>
> Charles

>From: Andrew T Trembley <attrembl@bovil.com>

>
>If the green room isn’t being used for other purposes during the day,
>it’s a great place to mark out a tape stage. That wouldn’t have been
>possible at Atlanta (it was programming space during the day)

If I’d thought about it though, we could have marked out a rehearsal space
on the large open patio outside the corridor between the hotel and the
convention area or groups could have used the stage early in the morning or
late at night, since the hotel never seemed to lock up those spaces. I
think some groups were using the back of the ballroom to rehearse in.

Trudy

>–
>andy trembley, Bitchy Design Queen – http://www.bovil.com/
>San Jose, CA – ’72 R75/5 ’86 R100 (mine) – ’92 K75sa ’03 R1150R
>(Kevin’s)
>…remaining .sig trimmed for better message/.sig ratio
>

Charles is correct in pointing out that we could have scheduled the Ogden
Marriott ballroom for rehearsals on Friday and Saturday, so we should make
this a “highly desirable” part of future cons if not essential.

This points out one of the challenges that even RUNACC can’t always
address–answering the questions that no one has asked or thinks to ask.
For example, the question of “who orders the ribbons?” didn’t occur to me
until Mid-January–my initial impression being that this was an MD’s
responsibility and not the chair’s.

Fortunately, it was easy to remedy.

Dave Doering

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

On May 19, 2005, at 3:32 PM, David Doering wrote:

> This points out one of the challenges that even RUNACC can’t always
> address–answering the questions that no one has asked or thinks to
> ask.
> For example, the question of “who orders the ribbons?” didn’t occur to
> me
> until Mid-January–my initial impression being that this was an MD’s
> responsibility and not the chair’s.

This may be an unpopular position (having watched some MDs be very
territorial about things), but my opinion is that as much logistical
work as possible should be offloaded from the competition directors at
a Costume-Con.

There are a lot of shared services used by multiple competitions. Stage
crew, house crew, tech crew and green room are the most obvious, but
pubs/printing (as in certificates) is another that’s a slam-dunk, and
Dora showed that having a common records clerk could streamline some
processes. Having an events/entertainment/hospitality group
coordinating half-time shows for the directors would also be nice.

Oh, and ribbons? The con treasurer has the checkbook. It’s cheaper and
easier to do one large ribbon order rather than separate orders from
each competition director.

I’ve got to admit I was thrilled in Chicago to not have to worry about
half-time or MC selection for F&SF. Getting the CC24 gang to run the
stage was a stroke of luck (although I would have preferred if either I
or the concom had thought of them earlier). Bobby & Tina were great on
green room and repair table. I love my judges and clerks. I blew it on
printing (and learned my lesson).

So… coming full-circle on the “spread-out staff” question…

If I ever ran a masquerade from afar again, I would insist on a local
(or near-local) support chief who could sit in on the appropriate hotel
meetings (as suggested) and confirm for me (and the other directors)
stage dimensions and technical capabilities. I would push for a common
records clerk and printing capability so there was a consistent level
of service for all competitions and so there was some consistency in
the certificates. I would push for a common crew to handle logistics,
and delegate the whole half-time thing out as quickly as possible.

I would do everything I could so my time at con could be spent dealing
with entrants’ problems rather than the convention’s.

—
Andy Trembley, Bull-in-Drag
The Bovine Illuminati (It’s the Cows, Inc.)
http://www.bovil.com/
Moo!

In a message dated 5/18/2005 8:26:38 PM Central Daylight Time,
castleb@pulsenet.com writes:

> Thats the main reason I didn’t want Caitlin judging. I honestly didn’t want
>
> my 15 year old trying to give an award just because something struck her
> fancy, without the overall mindset of all the other criterias we’ve been
> discussing.
>
> Her ideas would have been pure and honest, but uneducated.

I thought she has been to enough conventions to have seen a great number of
entries. Pure and honest, yes. But I don’t think uneducated. She hasn’t had the
experiences that you have had, Ricky, but she has had an education. And a
different one that others.

That’s why I wanted her as a judge.

Henry

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

In a message dated 5/18/2005 9:33:45 PM Central Daylight Time,
bpconnell@verizon.net writes:

> In my opinion, if the judges decide that none of the entries in the master
> division meet their standards for work in that division, they would be
> justified in giving no master division awards.

Couldn’t someone in the Master division get a best in division, but not a
best in show, in that case?

Henry

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

In a message dated 5/18/2005 9:56:22 PM Central Daylight Time,
les@trans-iowa.org writes:

> Byron,
>
> You’re welcome to come to DemiCon, July 29-31st. It’ll be in the same
> hotel as CC-24.

Byron, if you do, I’m looking for roommates!
Henry

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Actually, in Ogden, the green room really would not have been available after Friday evening. Some SF&F entrants moved their props and costume parts (and themselves) into the green room during Saturday’s tech rehearsal. After the SF&F masquerade, the room set-up was retained, since the FFS call was for 10:00 a.m. on Sunday.

—- Original Message —–
From: Andrew T Trembley<mailto:attrembl@bovil.com>
To: runacc@yahoogroups.com<mailto:runacc@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, May 19, 2005 5:21 PM
Subject: Re: [runacc] Tech rehearsals from a geek point of view

If the green room isn’t being used for other purposes during the day,
it’s a great place to mark out a tape stage. That wouldn’t have been
possible at Atlanta (it was programming space during the day) but would
have been in Ogden or Chicago.

—
andy trembley, Bitchy Design Queen – http://www.bovil.com/<http://www.bovil.com/>
San Jose, CA – ’72 R75/5 ’86 R100 (mine) – ’92 K75sa ’03 R1150R
(Kevin’s)

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

This is why a con — as a function-heavy event — needs to plan on and budget for taking all the hotel’s function space for the duration of the con.

Byron

—– Original Message —–
From: Charles<mailto:cgalway@xmission.com>
To: runacc@yahoogroups.com<mailto:runacc@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, May 19, 2005 5:45 PM
Subject: Re: [runacc] Tech rehearsals from a geek point of view

I had wanted to use a large open ballroom — taped out with stage size — as a physical rehearsal area. When we found out that those had been rented, I tried to make the smaller (programming) rooms available, such as Friday morning, and Friday evening/night, as listed in pocket program. I would presume that those times were adequate for the groups interested. In addition, I did not arrange for the chairs to be moved to the side, nor did I communicate such availability to the masquerade directors. Which would have been a good idea, to make such space fully usable. In addition, we might have been able to have a sound system available. (I did try to set up the DVD player in Juniper with speakers for CD’s, but instead I wound up running the audio output to the TV, instead — I needed one more audio cable.)

The point was, I did expect people to want rehearsal space, but my first choice (the large ballroom) was not available as of a few months before the con — and we didn’t really have the budget to rent that extra space (although with an extra 10 or 20 people, we would have).

I would suggest making an interest in such space a request, and then either it may be planned for, or what space that could be made available could be checked with your schedule. The MD’s were concentrating on the Theater, and in Darla’s case, all the pre-judging required, as well.

Charles

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I agree with Andy. In my experience, it makes sense for there to be a common core of tech, stage, green room, front of house, and other support staff (although volunteers would vary) whose job in part would be to let the MDs concentrate on the art of the show by taking those responsibilities off their shoulders. That is the way most CCs have been run at least since cc 8. As an example, in the past, it has been the concom that has asked me to run green rooms, not the MDs.

Byron

—– Original Message —–
From: Andrew T Trembley<mailto:attrembl@bovil.com>
To: runacc@yahoogroups.com<mailto:runacc@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, May 19, 2005 7:26 PM
Subject: [runacc] What does the MD do? (was Re: Tech rehearsals from a geek point of view

On May 19, 2005, at 3:32 PM, David Doering wrote:
> This points out one of the challenges that even RUNACC can’t always
> address–answering the questions that no one has asked or thinks to
> ask.
> For example, the question of “who orders the ribbons?” didn’t occur to
> me
> until Mid-January–my initial impression being that this was an MD’s
> responsibility and not the chair’s.

This may be an unpopular position (having watched some MDs be very
territorial about things), but my opinion is that as much logistical
work as possible should be offloaded from the competition directors at
a Costume-Con.

There are a lot of shared services used by multiple competitions. Stage
crew, house crew, tech crew and green room are the most obvious, but
pubs/printing (as in certificates) is another that’s a slam-dunk, and
Dora showed that having a common records clerk could streamline some
processes. Having an events/entertainment/hospitality group
coordinating half-time shows for the directors would also be nice.

Oh, and ribbons? The con treasurer has the checkbook. It’s cheaper and
easier to do one large ribbon order rather than separate orders from
each competition director.

I’ve got to admit I was thrilled in Chicago to not have to worry about
half-time or MC selection for F&SF. Getting the CC24 gang to run the
stage was a stroke of luck (although I would have preferred if either I
or the concom had thought of them earlier). Bobby & Tina were great on
green room and repair table. I love my judges and clerks. I blew it on
printing (and learned my lesson).

So… coming full-circle on the “spread-out staff” question…

If I ever ran a masquerade from afar again, I would insist on a local
(or near-local) support chief who could sit in on the appropriate hotel
meetings (as suggested) and confirm for me (and the other directors)
stage dimensions and technical capabilities. I would push for a common
records clerk and printing capability so there was a consistent level
of service for all competitions and so there was some consistency in
the certificates. I would push for a common crew to handle logistics,
and delegate the whole half-time thing out as quickly as possible.

I would do everything I could so my time at con could be spent dealing
with entrants’ problems rather than the convention’s.

—
Andy Trembley, Bull-in-Drag
The Bovine Illuminati (It’s the Cows, Inc.)
http://www.bovil.com/<http://www.bovil.com/>
Moo!

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

In a message dated 5/19/2005 7:39:31 PM Central Daylight Time,
bpconnell@verizon.net writes:

> As an example, in the past, it has been the concom that has asked me to run
> green rooms, not the MDs.

That’s because you are the best there is at running a Green Room!
Henry

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

In my opinion, no. When I serve as a judge, I prefer judging rules that ask the judges to make their decisions by holding each entry up to their standard for the division over rules that pit the entrants against one another. You’ll notice that I normally refer to “entrants,” not “contestants.” I believe that everyone who deserves an award should receive one and that no one who does not deserve an award should receive one. As a result, I dislike arbitrary limits on the number of awards the judges may give, either overall or by division. By this philosophy, it is possible for every entry in a division to receive an award. It also is possible for no entry to do so, if the judges find that none of the entries met the standards they expected of contestants in that division.

I recognize that a lot of costumers disagree with my position.

Byron

—– Original Message —–
From: osierhenry@cs.com<mailto:osierhenry@cs.com>
To: runacc@yahoogroups.com<mailto:runacc@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, May 19, 2005 7:44 PM
Subject: Re: [runacc] More on Judging

In a message dated 5/18/2005 9:33:45 PM Central Daylight Time,
bpconnell@verizon.net<mailto:bpconnell@verizon.net> writes:
> In my opinion, if the judges decide that none of the entries in the master
> division meet their standards for work in that division, they would be
> justified in giving no master division awards.

Couldn’t someone in the Master division get a best in division, but not a
best in show, in that case?

Henry

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

In a message dated 5/19/2005 7:50:08 PM Central Daylight Time,
bpconnell@verizon.net writes:

> I recognize that a lot of costumers disagree with my position.

Not this one. You explained yourself well!
Henry

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