Yahoo Archive: Page 55 of 67

 

Messages in runacc group. Page 55 of 67.

Group: runacc Message: 2704 From: Nora & Bruce Mai Date: 3/25/2015
Subject: Re: Is this list still relevant?
Group: runacc Message: 2705 From: Byron Connell Date: 3/25/2015
Subject: Re: Is this list still relevant?
Group: runacc Message: 2706 From: Byron Connell Date: 3/25/2015
Subject: Re: Is this list still relevant?
Group: runacc Message: 2707 From: Nora & Bruce Mai Date: 3/25/2015
Subject: Re: Is this list still relevant?
Group: runacc Message: 2708 From: ECM Date: 3/25/2015
Subject: Re: Is this list still relevant?
Group: runacc Message: 2709 From: Nora & Bruce Mai Date: 3/25/2015
Subject: Re: Is this list still relevant?
Group: runacc Message: 2710 From: Kaijugal . Date: 3/29/2015
Subject: Re: Is this list still relevant?
Group: runacc Message: 2711 From: Nora & Bruce Mai Date: 3/30/2015
Subject: Convention wonking: Judging forms, skill levels etc.
Group: runacc Message: 2712 From: ma0902432 Date: 3/30/2015
Subject: Re: Convention wonking: Judging forms, skill levels etc.
Group: runacc Message: 2713 From: John O’Halloran Date: 3/30/2015
Subject: Re: Convention wonking: Judging forms, skill levels etc.
Group: runacc Message: 2714 From: Kevin Roche Date: 3/30/2015
Subject: Re: Convention wonking: Judging forms, skill levels etc.
Group: runacc Message: 2715 From: Betsy Marks Delaney Date: 3/30/2015
Subject: Re: Convention wonking: Judging forms, skill levels etc.
Group: runacc Message: 2716 From: Byron Connell Date: 3/30/2015
Subject: Re: Convention wonking: Judging forms, skill levels etc.
Group: runacc Message: 2717 From: Byron Connell Date: 3/30/2015
Subject: Re: Convention wonking: Judging forms, skill levels etc.
Group: runacc Message: 2718 From: Andrew Trembley Date: 3/30/2015
Subject: Re: Convention wonking: Judging forms, skill levels etc.
Group: runacc Message: 2719 From: Aurora Celeste Date: 3/30/2015
Subject: Re: Convention wonking: Judging forms, skill levels etc.
Group: runacc Message: 2720 From: Andrew Trembley Date: 3/30/2015
Subject: Re: Convention wonking: Judging forms, skill levels etc.
Group: runacc Message: 2721 From: Nora & Bruce Mai Date: 3/30/2015
Subject: Re: Convention wonking: Judging forms, skill levels etc.
Group: runacc Message: 2722 From: von_drago Date: 3/30/2015
Subject: Re: Convention wonking: Judging forms, skill levels etc.
Group: runacc Message: 2723 From: Andrew Trembley Date: 3/30/2015
Subject: Re: Convention wonking: Judging forms, skill levels etc.
Group: runacc Message: 2724 From: Betsy Marks Delaney Date: 3/30/2015
Subject: Re: Convention wonking: Judging forms, skill levels etc.
Group: runacc Message: 2725 From: Nora & Bruce Mai Date: 3/30/2015
Subject: Re: Convention wonking: Judging forms, skill levels etc.
Group: runacc Message: 2726 From: Betsy Marks Delaney Date: 3/31/2015
Subject: Re: Convention wonking: Judging forms, skill levels etc.
Group: runacc Message: 2727 From: staceylee25 Date: 3/31/2015
Subject: Re: Convention wonking: Judging forms, skill levels etc.
Group: runacc Message: 2728 From: Byron Connell Date: 3/31/2015
Subject: Re: Convention wonking: Judging forms, skill levels etc.
Group: runacc Message: 2729 From: Nora & Bruce Mai Date: 3/31/2015
Subject: Re: Convention wonking: Judging forms, skill levels etc.
Group: runacc Message: 2730 From: Betsy Marks Delaney Date: 4/1/2015
Subject: Access to this list.
Group: runacc Message: 2731 From: Byron Connell Date: 4/2/2015
Subject: Re: Access to this list.
Group: runacc Message: 2732 From: Nora & Bruce Mai Date: 4/8/2015
Subject: Re: Access to this list.
Group: runacc Message: 2733 From: costumrs Date: 4/8/2015
Subject: Re: Access to this list.
Group: runacc Message: 2734 From: Nora & Bruce Mai Date: 4/9/2015
Subject: Re: Access to this list.
Group: runacc Message: 2735 From: Byron Connell Date: 4/9/2015
Subject: Re: Access to this list.
Group: runacc Message: 2736 From: Betsy Marks Delaney Date: 4/10/2015
Subject: Re: Access to this list.
Group: runacc Message: 2737 From: kittythecanuck Date: 4/10/2015
Subject: Re: Access to this list.
Group: runacc Message: 2738 From: JBdashoff@aol.com Date: 4/10/2015
Subject: Re: Access to this list.
Group: runacc Message: 2739 From: Nora & Bruce Mai Date: 4/16/2015
Subject: Re: Access to this list – “term limits”
Group: runacc Message: 2740 From: Nora & Bruce Mai Date: 4/16/2015
Subject: Re: Access to this list.
Group: runacc Message: 2741 From: Nora & Bruce Mai Date: 4/16/2015
Subject: Hall costumes are becoming the Competition costumes
Group: runacc Message: 2742 From: staceylee25 Date: 4/17/2015
Subject: Re: Hall costumes are becoming the Competition costumes
Group: runacc Message: 2743 From: Kevin Roche Date: 4/17/2015
Subject: Re: Hall costumes are becoming the Competition costumes
Group: runacc Message: 2744 From: ECM Date: 4/17/2015
Subject: Re: Hall costumes are becoming the Competition costumes
Group: runacc Message: 2745 From: Betsy Marks Delaney Date: 4/17/2015
Subject: Re: Hall costumes are becoming the Competition costumes
Group: runacc Message: 2746 From: Kaijugal . Date: 4/17/2015
Subject: Re: Hall costumes are becoming the Competition costumes
Group: runacc Message: 2747 From: Kaijugal . Date: 4/17/2015
Subject: Re: Hall costumes are becoming the Competition costumes
Group: runacc Message: 2748 From: Byron Connell Date: 4/17/2015
Subject: Re: Access to this list – “term limits”
Group: runacc Message: 2749 From: Nora & Bruce Mai Date: 4/17/2015
Subject: Re: Access to this list – bid groups
Group: runacc Message: 2750 From: Byron Connell Date: 4/17/2015
Subject: Re: Hall costumes are becoming the Competition costumes
Group: runacc Message: 2751 From: Byron Connell Date: 4/17/2015
Subject: Re: Access to this list – bid groups
Group: runacc Message: 2752 From: ECM Date: 4/17/2015
Subject: Re: Hall costumes are becoming the Competition costumes
Group: runacc Message: 2753 From: Aurora Celeste Date: 4/17/2015
Subject: Re: Hall costumes are becoming the Competition costumes

 


 

Group: runacc Message: 2704 From: Nora & Bruce Mai Date: 3/25/2015
Subject: Re: Is this list still relevant?

 

 

I agree – FB would not be a good platform, really.

 

Bruce

 

From: runacc@yahoogroups.com [mailto:runacc@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Tuesday, March 24, 2015 10:33 PM
To: List, Run a CC
Subject: Re: [runacc] Re: Is this list still relevant?

As an archive, it costs nothing to continue. Unless or until Yahoo decides groups are finished, I don’t see a particular reason to kill the list. Do folks generally agree with me? I doubt that moving to a format like Facebook would be useful, since the ability for folks to see posts depends on whether users have blocked each other. Blocking isn’t an option in a mailing list group, though members can certainly turn posts off.

There are ways to participate that don’t involve the Yahoo interface. I receive messages in my own mailbox and respond to them there. If you use the Yahoo interface exclusively, would you please drop me a line and let me know how that’s working for you? I’m curious.

Thanks,

Betsy

On Tue, Mar 24, 2015 at 11:10 PM, ‘Nora & Bruce Mai’ casamai@sbcglobal.net [runacc] <runacc@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Hm.  Well, looking back, beyond what I posted after CC32, there has been almost no traffic since then.    And unless I deleted a few in my folder, there were a whopping 10 emails between that and the CC31 review.   So, this is becoming less an active list as it is an archive l(little a) list of discussions past.

 

Bruce

 

From: runacc@yahoogroups.com [mailto:runacc@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Tuesday, March 24, 2015 7:24 PM
To: runacc@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [runacc] Re: Is this list still relevant?

I strongly believe this group is still relevant. I agree with Byron, that there is more traffic here right after CC, but for the ones coming up, such as Madison, Toronto 2, and San Diego, if I remember right, will need the opinions of those of us who have run a CC before them. I know they have direct contact with some of us vets, but more is always better for some answers. And calming nerves.

Henry Osier
Two Time Member of the Never Again Club


Betsy Marks Delaney

http://www.hawkeswood.com/

 

 

Group: runacc Message: 2705 From: Byron Connell Date: 3/25/2015
Subject: Re: Is this list still relevant?

 

One value we should consider: This is not an ICG-sponsored activity.  I believe the ICG is working on a set of articles on various aspects of masquerade-running.  On the one hand, they may overlap some of the discussions here; on the other, this list provides an alternative source of information, opinion, and (when sought) advice.  That’s good.

 

Byron

 

 

On Mar 24, 2015, at 11:10 PM, ‘Nora & Bruce Mai’ casamai@sbcglobal.net [runacc] <runacc@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

 

Hm.  Well, looking back, beyond what I posted after CC32, there has been almost no traffic since then.    And unless I deleted a few in my folder, there were a whopping 10 emails between that and the CC31 review.   So, this is becoming less an active list as it is an archive l(little a) list of discussions past.

 

Bruce

 

From: runacc@yahoogroups.com [mailto:runacc@yahoogroups.com] 
Sent: Tuesday, March 24, 2015 7:24 PM
To: runacc@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [runacc] Re: Is this list still relevant?



I strongly believe this group is still relevant. I agree with Byron, that there is more traffic here right after CC, but for the ones coming up, such as Madison, Toronto 2, and San Diego, if I remember right, will need the opinions of those of us who have run a CC before them. I know they have direct contact with some of us vets, but more is always better for some answers. And calming nerves.

Henry Osier
Two Time Member of the Never Again Club




 

 

 

 

Group: runacc Message: 2706 From: Byron Connell Date: 3/25/2015
Subject: Re: Is this list still relevant?

 

I agree and would not want to see the list discontinued.  Like you, I receive messages directly in my in box and respond to them through my e-mail.  I go to the Yahoogroups interface only when I need to look back for something.

 

Byron

 

 

On Mar 24, 2015, at 11:32 PM, Betsy Marks Delaney aramintamd@gmail.com [runacc] <runacc@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

 

As an archive, it costs nothing to continue. Unless or until Yahoo decides groups are finished, I don’t see a particular reason to kill the list. Do folks generally agree with me? I doubt that moving to a format like Facebook would be useful, since the ability for folks to see posts depends on whether users have blocked each other. Blocking isn’t an option in a mailing list group, though members can certainly turn posts off.

There are ways to participate that don’t involve the Yahoo interface. I receive messages in my own mailbox and respond to them there. If you use the Yahoo interface exclusively, would you please drop me a line and let me know how that’s working for you? I’m curious.
Thanks,
Betsy

 

On Tue, Mar 24, 2015 at 11:10 PM, ‘Nora & Bruce Mai’ casamai@sbcglobal.net [runacc] <runacc@yahoogroups.com> wrote:



Hm.  Well, looking back, beyond what I posted after CC32, there has been almost no traffic since then.    And unless I deleted a few in my folder, there were a whopping 10 emails between that and the CC31 review.   So, this is becoming less an active list as it is an archive l(little a) list of discussions past.

 

Bruce

 

From: runacc@yahoogroups.com [mailto:runacc@yahoogroups.com] 
Sent: Tuesday, March 24, 2015 7:24 PM
To: runacc@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [runacc] Re: Is this list still relevant?

 

 



I strongly believe this group is still relevant. I agree with Byron, that there is more traffic here right after CC, but for the ones coming up, such as Madison, Toronto 2, and San Diego, if I remember right, will need the opinions of those of us who have run a CC before them. I know they have direct contact with some of us vets, but more is always better for some answers. And calming nerves.

Henry Osier
Two Time Member of the Never Again Club




 





 

Betsy Marks Delaney

http://www.hawkeswood.com/

 

 

 

 

Group: runacc Message: 2707 From: Nora & Bruce Mai Date: 3/25/2015
Subject: Re: Is this list still relevant?

 

 

Well, then folks need to step up and not let the list lay fallow so long, then.

 

Bruce

 

From: runacc@yahoogroups.com [mailto:runacc@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Wednesday, March 25, 2015 2:25 PM
To: runacc@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [runacc] Re: Is this list still relevant?

I agree and would not want to see the list discontinued.  Like you, I receive messages directly in my in box and respond to them through my e-mail.  I go to the Yahoogroups interface only when I need to look back for something.

Byron

 

On Mar 24, 2015, at 11:32 PM, Betsy Marks Delaney aramintamd@gmail.com [runacc] <runacc@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

 

As an archive, it costs nothing to continue. Unless or until Yahoo decides groups are finished, I don’t see a particular reason to kill the list. Do folks generally agree with me? I doubt that moving to a format like Facebook would be useful, since the ability for folks to see posts depends on whether users have blocked each other. Blocking isn’t an option in a mailing list group, though members can certainly turn posts off.

 

There are ways to participate that don’t involve the Yahoo interface. I receive messages in my own mailbox and respond to them there. If you use the Yahoo interface exclusively, would you please drop me a line and let me know how that’s working for you? I’m curious.

 

Thanks,

 

Betsy

 

On Tue, Mar 24, 2015 at 11:10 PM, ‘Nora & Bruce Mai’ casamai@sbcglobal.net [runacc] <runacc@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

 

Hm.  Well, looking back, beyond what I posted after CC32, there has been almost no traffic since then.    And unless I deleted a few in my folder, there were a whopping 10 emails between that and the CC31 review.   So, this is becoming less an active list as it is an archive l(little a) list of discussions past.

 

Bruce

 

From: runacc@yahoogroups.com [mailto:runacc@yahoogroups.com] 
Sent: Tuesday, March 24, 2015 7:24 PM
To: runacc@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [runacc] Re: Is this list still relevant?

I strongly believe this group is still relevant. I agree with Byron, that there is more traffic here right after CC, but for the ones coming up, such as Madison, Toronto 2, and San Diego, if I remember right, will need the opinions of those of us who have run a CC before them. I know they have direct contact with some of us vets, but more is always better for some answers. And calming nerves.

Henry Osier
Two Time Member of the Never Again Club

 



 

 

Betsy Marks Delaney

http://www.hawkeswood.com/

 

 

 

 

Group: runacc Message: 2708 From: ECM Date: 3/25/2015
Subject: Re: Is this list still relevant?

 

Believe me, San Diego will have it’s entire committee on the list as soon as we win the vote!  Since almost all of them are CC newbies, there will surely be questions.

They will say, “Well, why don’t we do it this way?”  And I will tell them, “That’s a very good question!  Why don’t you post it on the runacc list?”

Elaine
Charter Member of the Slow Learners’ Club


To: runacc@yahoogroups.com
From: runacc@yahoogroups.com
Date: Tue, 24 Mar 2015 20:24:19 -0400
Subject: [runacc] Re: Is this list still relevant?

 


I strongly believe this group is still relevant. I agree with Byron, that there is more traffic here right after CC, but for the ones coming up, such as Madison, Toronto 2, and San Diego, if I remember right, will need the opinions of those of us who have run a CC before them. I know they have direct contact with some of us vets, but more is always better for some answers. And calming nerves.

Henry Osier
Two Time Member of the Never Again Club

 

 

 

Group: runacc Message: 2709 From: Nora & Bruce Mai Date: 3/25/2015
Subject: Re: Is this list still relevant?

 

 

Well, that’s good.   Now, we need to hear more from the Canadians…..

 

From: runacc@yahoogroups.com [mailto:runacc@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Wednesday, March 25, 2015 9:37 PM
To: Betsy D
Subject: RE: [runacc] Re: Is this list still relevant?

Believe me, San Diego will have it’s entire committee on the list as soon as we win the vote!  Since almost all of them are CC newbies, there will surely be questions.

They will say, “Well, why don’t we do it this way?”  And I will tell them, “That’s a very good question!  Why don’t you post it on the runacc list?”

Elaine
Charter Member of the Slow Learners’ Club

 


 

To: runacc@yahoogroups.com
From: runacc@yahoogroups.com
Date: Tue, 24 Mar 2015 20:24:19 -0400
Subject: [runacc] Re: Is this list still relevant?

I strongly believe this group is still relevant. I agree with Byron, that there is more traffic here right after CC, but for the ones coming up, such as Madison, Toronto 2, and San Diego, if I remember right, will need the opinions of those of us who have run a CC before them. I know they have direct contact with some of us vets, but more is always better for some answers. And calming nerves.

Henry Osier
Two Time Member of the Never Again Club

 

 

 

Group: runacc Message: 2710 From: Kaijugal . Date: 3/29/2015
Subject: Re: Is this list still relevant?

 

I read this list quite extensively before CC32, as well as comments in other ICG and Costume-Con related lists and Social Media circles. I wanted people to have a good time, and I wanted Costume-Con 32 to live up to their expectations as much as possible.

I also was keen to learn all I could being acutely aware of how critical people can be in regards to Costume-Cons in general.

I found some useful information of course we used as much as we could,
(within the scope of the  limited manpower we had to run CC32.)

I do not think the lack of activity, (active discussion?) on the list is an indicator of it being irrelevant.
It is still a list wish some enduringly useful points, even if no further information is currently being added.
I have even made a point of pointing people to this list. If they chose to join and read or not I cannot say.

Removing or closing the list doesn’t make much sense as it is an archive of thoughts and ideas that should

still be useful.
On another note I agree with whomever said it should not be moved to Facebook. Facebook
is new and shiny and nice, but conversations on it archive terribly .
My personal opinion is that it s not a good platform for information you want to store and make available in
an easily searchable format.

Dawn McKechnie – President – Fibre Fantasy Artists of Canada


To: runacc@yahoogroups.com
From: runacc@yahoogroups.com
Date: Wed, 25 Mar 2015 21:49:50 -0500
Subject: RE: [runacc] Re: Is this list still relevant?

 

 

Well, that’s good.   Now, we need to hear more from the Canadians…..

 

From: runacc@yahoogroups.com [mailto:runacc@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Wednesday, March 25, 2015 9:37 PM
To: Betsy D
Subject: RE: [runacc] Re: Is this list still relevant?

Believe me, San Diego will have it’s entire committee on the list as soon as we win the vote!  Since almost all of them are CC newbies, there will surely be questions.

They will say, “Well, why don’t we do it this way?”  And I will tell them, “That’s a very good question!  Why don’t you post it on the runacc list?”

Elaine
Charter Member of the Slow Learners’ Club

 


 

To: runacc@yahoogroups.com
From: runacc@yahoogroups.com
Date: Tue, 24 Mar 2015 20:24:19 -0400
Subject: [runacc] Re: Is this list still relevant?

I strongly believe this group is still relevant. I agree with Byron, that there is more traffic here right after CC, but for the ones coming up, such as Madison, Toronto 2, and San Diego, if I remember right, will need the opinions of those of us who have run a CC before them. I know they have direct contact with some of us vets, but more is always better for some answers. And calming nerves.

Henry Osier
Two Time Member of the Never Again Club

 

 

 

Group: runacc Message: 2711 From: Nora & Bruce Mai Date: 3/30/2015
Subject: Convention wonking: Judging forms, skill levels etc.

 

 

So, since most folks see a need for this list, let’s get some discussion going.  When the lot of us get together, we narf about CC stuff.

Topic #1.   What does everyone here think of the recent suggestions by Tonya Adolfson (from the Gem State Guild) that the ICG (and by relation,  CC) on how to determine where one’s skill level is, as well as the “Meet the Judges” panel after the masq, and so on?

Discuss!

Bruce

 

 

Group: runacc Message: 2712 From: ma0902432 Date: 3/30/2015
Subject: Re: Convention wonking: Judging forms, skill levels etc.
I actually think that the ICG Division system of Novice, Journeyman,
Craftsman/Master, has done a pretty good job of suggesting where the
boundarieslie for ascertaining skill level. I Don’t believe that # of
hours spent on building a costume represents skill level or
award-worthiness, as evidenced by comments that when you are first
learning a skill, it takes longer. There is a sweet spot between time
and effort where a costume can exceed any expectations.

And honestly there are some of us, like myself, who just like doing more
time-consuming methods–like hand beadwork. Does that mean that metal
fabricated armor is less worthy somehow? I think not. I’ve been a
Workmanship Judge countless times and it often is comparing apples with
oranges, or more accurately, comparing apples with zebras, when costumers
compete…..

Yours in costuming, Lisa A

On Mon, 30 Mar 2015 07:25:17 -0500 “‘Nora & Bruce Mai’
casamai@sbcglobal.net [runacc]” <runacc@yahoogroups.com> writes:

So, since most folks see a need for this list, let’s get some discussion
going. When the lot of us get together, we narf about CC stuff.

Topic #1. What does everyone here think of the recent suggestions by
Tonya Adolfson (from the Gem State Guild) that the ICG (and by relation,
CC) on how to determine where one’s skill level is, as well as the “Meet
the Judges” panel after the masq, and so on?

Discuss!

Bruce

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

 

Group: runacc Message: 2713 From: John O’Halloran Date: 3/30/2015
Subject: Re: Convention wonking: Judging forms, skill levels etc.

I’m gonna ignore your Topic #1, as this has been raised on the Sasquan Masq staff list.

Judging forms

I’ve judged 2 worldcons, several westercons and lost count of local cons.

Never once have I received a “special” judges form.    The most “judges form” it’s ever been, is a print out of the entry #, Name, Class and big block for notes.  Sometimes it’s been a copy of the full entry sheet and most often, it’s just a pad of paper that we have to track everything.

Personally, The #, Name, Class, Notes and the judges photos, is all I really use.   I don’t think I would ever have time to read/use a form with a bunch more info or ticky boxes.
JohnO

 

 

On Mon, Mar 30, 2015 at 5:25 AM, ‘Nora & Bruce Mai’ casamai@sbcglobal.net [runacc] <runacc@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

 

So, since most folks see a need for this list, let’s get some discussion going.  When the lot of us get together, we narf about CC stuff.

 

Topic #1.   What does everyone here think of the recent suggestions by Tonya Adolfson (from the Gem State Guild) that the ICG (and by relation,  CC) on how to determine where one’s skill level is, as well as the “Meet the Judges” panel after the masq, and so on?

 

Discuss!

 

Bruce

 

 

Group: runacc Message: 2714 From: Kevin Roche Date: 3/30/2015
Subject: Re: Convention wonking: Judging forms, skill levels etc.

I have to admit to a visceral “You have got to be kidding!” reaction to the “numbers of hours –> skill division” approach.

In part because I have seen novice entries that had been worked on FOREVER and still were very definitely appropriate to enter in the novice category.
Also in part because there are certain costuming skills I have where I’m apparently preternaturally fast. You wouldn’t want to argue my work should be entered in the novice category because it only took me 10 hours to put together.
I’m with Lisa, I think the current version of the ICG guidelines wrt skill division is well-considered, especially with the open option to “compete up” that they recommend.
Kevin

 

 

On Mon, Mar 30, 2015 at 1:28 PM, ‘John O’Halloran’ JohnO@TyeDye.Org [runacc] <runacc@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

 

I’m gonna ignore your Topic #1, as this has been raised on the Sasquan Masq staff list.

Judging forms

I’ve judged 2 worldcons, several westercons and lost count of local cons.

Never once have I received a “special” judges form.    The most “judges form” it’s ever been, is a print out of the entry #, Name, Class and big block for notes.  Sometimes it’s been a copy of the full entry sheet and most often, it’s just a pad of paper that we have to track everything.

Personally, The #, Name, Class, Notes and the judges photos, is all I really use.   I don’t think I would ever have time to read/use a form with a bunch more info or ticky boxes.
JohnO

 

 

On Mon, Mar 30, 2015 at 5:25 AM, ‘Nora & Bruce Mai’ casamai@sbcglobal.net [runacc] <runacc@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

 

So, since most folks see a need for this list, let’s get some discussion going.  When the lot of us get together, we narf about CC stuff.

 

Topic #1.   What does everyone here think of the recent suggestions by Tonya Adolfson (from the Gem State Guild) that the ICG (and by relation,  CC) on how to determine where one’s skill level is, as well as the “Meet the Judges” panel after the masq, and so on?

 

Discuss!

 

Bruce

 

 

 

 

 

 

Group: runacc Message: 2715 From: Betsy Marks Delaney Date: 3/30/2015
Subject: Re: Convention wonking: Judging forms, skill levels etc.

Marty used specific judging forms, but I don’t know that the practice has continued. Any convention where he was involved as MD included them, and that was a substantial number on the East Coast.

When I’ve judged (and it’s been a while) I found that no matter what form the recording of data took, it was no match for the two-to-one ganging up when judges were inspired to choose one entry over another. That process is what turned me off for judging all but Workmanship, and then only when I’m actually able to attend a con (which won’t be for a very long time, with a weekend job).
Sorry I can’t be more helpful.
-b

 

 

On Mon, Mar 30, 2015 at 4:48 PM, Kevin Roche kevin@twistedimage.com [runacc] <runacc@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

 

I have to admit to a visceral “You have got to be kidding!” reaction to the “numbers of hours –> skill division” approach.

In part because I have seen novice entries that had been worked on FOREVER and still were very definitely appropriate to enter in the novice category.
Also in part because there are certain costuming skills I have where I’m apparently preternaturally fast. You wouldn’t want to argue my work should be entered in the novice category because it only took me 10 hours to put together.
I’m with Lisa, I think the current version of the ICG guidelines wrt skill division is well-considered, especially with the open option to “compete up” that they recommend.
Kevin

 

 

On Mon, Mar 30, 2015 at 1:28 PM, ‘John O’Halloran’ JohnO@TyeDye.Org [runacc] <runacc@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

 

I’m gonna ignore your Topic #1, as this has been raised on the Sasquan Masq staff list.

Judging forms

I’ve judged 2 worldcons, several westercons and lost count of local cons.

Never once have I received a “special” judges form.    The most “judges form” it’s ever been, is a print out of the entry #, Name, Class and big block for notes.  Sometimes it’s been a copy of the full entry sheet and most often, it’s just a pad of paper that we have to track everything.

Personally, The #, Name, Class, Notes and the judges photos, is all I really use.   I don’t think I would ever have time to read/use a form with a bunch more info or ticky boxes.
JohnO

 

 

On Mon, Mar 30, 2015 at 5:25 AM, ‘Nora & Bruce Mai’ casamai@sbcglobal.net [runacc] <runacc@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

 

So, since most folks see a need for this list, let’s get some discussion going.  When the lot of us get together, we narf about CC stuff.

 

Topic #1.   What does everyone here think of the recent suggestions by Tonya Adolfson (from the Gem State Guild) that the ICG (and by relation,  CC) on how to determine where one’s skill level is, as well as the “Meet the Judges” panel after the masq, and so on?

 

Discuss!

 

Bruce

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 


Betsy Marks Delaney

http://www.hawkeswood.com/

 

 

Group: runacc Message: 2716 From: Byron Connell Date: 3/30/2015
Subject: Re: Convention wonking: Judging forms, skill levels etc.

 

We had special judges’ forms at Anticipation and for the Historical at CC 32.  The program we used generated them, with a different set of data from those used by tech or by the MC.  My deputy MD, Sylvain St.Pierre, developed the program.  I’d be happy to share it.  I think it’s easier to use than Marty Gear’s program.

 

Byron

 

 

On Mar 30, 2015, at 4:28 PM, ‘John O’Halloran’ JohnO@TyeDye.Org [runacc] <runacc@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

 

I’m gonna ignore your Topic #1, as this has been raised on the Sasquan Masq staff list.

Judging forms

I’ve judged 2 worldcons, several westercons and lost count of local cons.

Never once have I received a “special” judges form.    The most “judges form” it’s ever been, is a print out of the entry #, Name, Class and big block for notes.  Sometimes it’s been a copy of the full entry sheet and most often, it’s just a pad of paper that we have to track everything.

Personally, The #, Name, Class, Notes and the judges photos, is all I really use.   I don’t think I would ever have time to read/use a form with a bunch more info or ticky boxes.
JohnO

 

On Mon, Mar 30, 2015 at 5:25 AM, ‘Nora & Bruce Mai’ casamai@sbcglobal.net [runacc] <runacc@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

 

 

So, since most folks see a need for this list, let’s get some discussion going.  When the lot of us get together, we narf about CC stuff.

 

Topic #1.   What does everyone here think of the recent suggestions by Tonya Adolfson (from the Gem State Guild) that the ICG (and by relation,  CC) on how to determine where one’s skill level is, as well as the “Meet the Judges” panel after the masq, and so on?

 

Discuss!

 

Bruce

 

 

 

 

 

Group: runacc Message: 2717 From: Byron Connell Date: 3/30/2015
Subject: Re: Convention wonking: Judging forms, skill levels etc.

 

I don’t yet know what I “think” about the suggestions.  They’re very different from what I’m used to as a judges’ clerk, a judge, or a masquerade director and I don’t want to sound as if I’m stepping on them, especially if they’re from a different type of costume competition than our traditional form.  My experience primarily is at Worldcon and Costume-Con masquerades and at East Coast regional conventions, plus Archon.  Before I render opinions, I want more information that I hope Tonya can provide:

 

Skill Divisions:
— What events use the “hours of effort” measure to determine skill level?
— How long have they been doing so?
— How many entries do the events have (broadly speaking)?
— From where, geographically, do the events draw the entrants?
— What are the entires like (original, re-creation, assembled, science fiction, fantasy, media reproduction, and so forth)?
— How and why did you settle on this measure of skill vs. other measures?
Meet the Judges Panels:
— What events offer Meet the Judges panels?
— How long have they been doing so?
— How many/what proportion of the entrants participate?
— When during the event are the panels held?
— Are judges expected/obligated to comment publicly on specific entries?
Byron
On Mar 30, 2015, at 8:25 AM, ‘Nora & Bruce Mai’ casamai@sbcglobal.net [runacc] <runacc@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

 

 

So, since most folks see a need for this list, let’s get some discussion going.  When the lot of us get together, we narf about CC stuff.

Topic #1.   What does everyone here think of the recent suggestions by Tonya Adolfson (from the Gem State Guild) that the ICG (and by relation,  CC) on how to determine where one’s skill level is, as well as the “Meet the Judges” panel after the masq, and so on?

Discuss!

Bruce

 

 

 

 

Group: runacc Message: 2718 From: Andrew Trembley Date: 3/30/2015
Subject: Re: Convention wonking: Judging forms, skill levels etc.

 

On Mon, Mar 30, 2015 at 3:13 PM, Byron Connell byronpconnell@gmail.com [runacc] <runacc@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Meet the Judges Panels:
— What events offer Meet the Judges panels?
— How long have they been doing so?
— How many/what proportion of the entrants participate?
— When during the event are the panels held?
— Are judges expected/obligated to comment publicly on specific entries?

I like to have the judges show up at the contestant orientation/safety meeting, at least to be introduced.

I like to have the judges show up at the masquerade post-mortem panel.
If it wasn’t overloading the judges, I wouldn’t mind having the judges be on a “this is how judging works” panel before or after the masquerade, but there would have to be strong guidance in place to make sure the judges avoided making inappropriate comments.

 

 

Group: runacc Message: 2719 From: Aurora Celeste Date: 3/30/2015
Subject: Re: Convention wonking: Judging forms, skill levels etc.
I don’t think the majority of this group is on that list, so it’s probably ok to rehash here.

I like Byron’s questions.  I can see potential ways that the proposals *could* work.  Not for me, or the CostumeCon/WorldCon crowd, I think, but that doesn’t necessarily mean it’s wrong or bad.

~Aurora

 

 

On Mon, Mar 30, 2015 at 4:28 PM, ‘John O’Halloran’ JohnO@TyeDye.Org [runacc] <runacc@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

 

 

I’m gonna ignore your Topic #1, as this has been raised on the Sasquan Masq staff list.

 

 

Group: runacc Message: 2720 From: Andrew Trembley Date: 3/30/2015
Subject: Re: Convention wonking: Judging forms, skill levels etc.

 

 

On Mon, Mar 30, 2015 at 5:25 AM, ‘Nora & Bruce Mai’ casamai@sbcglobal.net [runacc] <runacc@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

What does everyone here think of the recent suggestions by Tonya Adolfson (from the Gem State Guild) that the ICG (and by relation,  CC) on how to determine where one’s skill level is

Time spent can easily indicate lack of skill. Lord knows I’ve done enough things the hard way with lots of rework involved because I didn’t know any better.

And time is economy. Rich people have lots of time, poor people have lots of time, young people and and retired people have lots of time, but not everybody has lots of time. There are a lot of students who have tons of time, but upon graduation and job suddenly find themselves with none.

 

Group: runacc Message: 2721 From: Nora & Bruce Mai Date: 3/30/2015
Subject: Re: Convention wonking: Judging forms, skill levels etc.

 

 

That – you’d have to pose to her on the D list.

 

Good discussions!   Keep it going!   Else, I’ll have to pull out another topic.   (hee hee hee)

 

Bruce

 

From: runacc@yahoogroups.com [mailto:runacc@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Monday, March 30, 2015 5:14 PM
To: runacc@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [runacc] Convention wonking: Judging forms, skill levels etc.

I don’t yet know what I “think” about the suggestions.  They’re very different from what I’m used to as a judges’ clerk, a judge, or a masquerade director and I don’t want to sound as if I’m stepping on them, especially if they’re from a different type of costume competition than our traditional form.  My experience primarily is at Worldcon and Costume-Con masquerades and at East Coast regional conventions, plus Archon.  Before I render opinions, I want more information that I hope Tonya can provide:

Skill Divisions:

— What events use the “hours of effort” measure to determine skill level?

— How long have they been doing so?

— How many entries do the events have (broadly speaking)?

— From where, geographically, do the events draw the entrants?

— What are the entires like (original, re-creation, assembled, science fiction, fantasy, media reproduction, and so forth)?

— How and why did you settle on this measure of skill vs. other measures?

Meet the Judges Panels:

— What events offer Meet the Judges panels?

— How long have they been doing so?

— How many/what proportion of the entrants participate?

— When during the event are the panels held?

— Are judges expected/obligated to comment publicly on specific entries?

Byron

On Mar 30, 2015, at 8:25 AM, ‘Nora & Bruce Mai’ casamai@sbcglobal.net [runacc] <runacc@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

 

 

So, since most folks see a need for this list, let’s get some discussion going.  When the lot of us get together, we narf about CC stuff.

Topic #1.   What does everyone here think of the recent suggestions by Tonya Adolfson (from the Gem State Guild) that the ICG (and by relation,  CC) on how to determine where one’s skill level is, as well as the “Meet the Judges” panel after the masq, and so on?

Discuss!

Bruce

 

 

 

 

Group: runacc Message: 2722 From: von_drago Date: 3/30/2015
Subject: Re: Convention wonking: Judging forms, skill levels etc.

I agree – good questions.

 

I always find it interesting to see how masquerades have evolved in different areas. Sometimes they have really nifty ideas that should be “acquired”. Hopefully they find some ideas themselves from outside their community that they want to use.

 

Nora

 

Group: runacc Message: 2723 From: Andrew Trembley Date: 3/30/2015
Subject: Re: Convention wonking: Judging forms, skill levels etc.

On the subject of time, is all time equal? Is 18 hours watching a pot boil the same as 18 hours doing cross stitch?

Let’s say I use a vinyl cutter to set out a pattern of crystals and then heat-set them. I have a beautifully precise piece in 5 hours instead of 70.

Maybe I’m doing Flash Gordon recreations and I just string beads and glue them down, taking far less time than stitching and knotting then individually. But that’s the technique the costume shop used originally.

 

Group: runacc Message: 2724 From: Betsy Marks Delaney Date: 3/30/2015
Subject: Re: Convention wonking: Judging forms, skill levels etc.

Not even a little like the same. Not only is it less time-consuming to produce something when you’ve practiced the art (hello, learning curve anyone?), but as Andy says, techniques vary. Often within the same piece of work.

-b

 

 

On Mon, Mar 30, 2015 at 9:09 PM, Andrew Trembley attrembl@bovil.com [runacc] <runacc@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

 

On the subject of time, is all time equal? Is 18 hours watching a pot boil the same as 18 hours doing cross stitch?

Let’s say I use a vinyl cutter to set out a pattern of crystals and then heat-set them. I have a beautifully precise piece in 5 hours instead of 70.

Maybe I’m doing Flash Gordon recreations and I just string beads and glue them down, taking far less time than stitching and knotting then individually. But that’s the technique the costume shop used originally.

 

 


Betsy Marks Delaney

http://www.hawkeswood.com/

 

 

Group: runacc Message: 2725 From: Nora & Bruce Mai Date: 3/30/2015
Subject: Re: Convention wonking: Judging forms, skill levels etc.

 

 

All good points.   Pretty much what we concluded.   How the heck can you quantify anything like that?

 

Bruce

 

From: runacc@yahoogroups.com [mailto:runacc@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Monday, March 30, 2015 8:15 PM
To: List, Run a CC
Subject: Re: [runacc] Convention wonking: Judging forms, skill levels etc.

Not even a little like the same. Not only is it less time-consuming to produce something when you’ve practiced the art (hello, learning curve anyone?), but as Andy says, techniques vary. Often within the same piece of work.

-b

On Mon, Mar 30, 2015 at 9:09 PM, Andrew Trembley attrembl@bovil.com [runacc] <runacc@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

On the subject of time, is all time equal? Is 18 hours watching a pot boil the same as 18 hours doing cross stitch?

Let’s say I use a vinyl cutter to set out a pattern of crystals and then heat-set them. I have a beautifully precise piece in 5 hours instead of 70.

Maybe I’m doing Flash Gordon recreations and I just string beads and glue them down, taking far less time than stitching and knotting then individually. But that’s the technique the costume shop used originally.


Betsy Marks Delaney

http://www.hawkeswood.com/

 

 

Group: runacc Message: 2726 From: Betsy Marks Delaney Date: 3/31/2015
Subject: Re: Convention wonking: Judging forms, skill levels etc.

One more comment and I’m going back to homework again:

Virtually ALL judging is arbitrary and subjective. Quantification is almost impossible when comparing apples to oranges, to kiwi fruit. The best one can hope for is the ability to discern quality based on the current set of whatever’s being presented (sewing skills, construction technique, design ability, presentation, whatever) at the event in question.
The best we can hope for is a common agreement of best practices, not an absolute across-the-board method that works for everyone, because there is no uniformity in art. Just because I don’t like Jackson Pollock’s artworks and I do love Georgia O’Keeffe’s or Salvador Dali’s doesn’t make Pollock’s art irrelevant.
Some days I wish the whole competition aspect of masquerades would just go away, in favor of showing the art for the sake of the art itself. I suspect we’d get a lot more people who just wanted to show off on stage.
Or not.
Then again, I’ve been wishing for that change for decades.
Ah, well. Back to After Effects.
Cheers,
Betsy

 

 

On Mon, Mar 30, 2015 at 11:15 PM, ‘Nora & Bruce Mai’ casamai@sbcglobal.net [runacc] <runacc@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

 

All good points.   Pretty much what we concluded.   How the heck can you quantify anything like that?

 

Bruce

 

From: runacc@yahoogroups.com [mailto:runacc@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Monday, March 30, 2015 8:15 PM
To: List, Run a CC
Subject: Re: [runacc] Convention wonking: Judging forms, skill levels etc.

 

 

Not even a little like the same. Not only is it less time-consuming to produce something when you’ve practiced the art (hello, learning curve anyone?), but as Andy says, techniques vary. Often within the same piece of work.

 

-b

 

 

 

On Mon, Mar 30, 2015 at 9:09 PM, Andrew Trembley attrembl@bovil.com [runacc] <runacc@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

 

On the subject of time, is all time equal? Is 18 hours watching a pot boil the same as 18 hours doing cross stitch?

Let’s say I use a vinyl cutter to set out a pattern of crystals and then heat-set them. I have a beautifully precise piece in 5 hours instead of 70.

Maybe I’m doing Flash Gordon recreations and I just string beads and glue them down, taking far less time than stitching and knotting then individually. But that’s the technique the costume shop used originally.

 


 

 

 

Betsy Marks Delaney

http://www.hawkeswood.com/

 

 

 


Betsy Marks Delaney

http://www.hawkeswood.com/

 

 

Group: runacc Message: 2727 From: staceylee25 Date: 3/31/2015
Subject: Re: Convention wonking: Judging forms, skill levels etc.

Yeeeeeaaaaaaahhh I’m right there with Kevin. I read that and was so stunned that I just didn’t have the capacity to make words in reaction. Rare for me, I know. I was more inclined to hysterical laughter, because I’m a jerk.

I thought back to the time I put into some of my biggest competition pieces, and only the Kingdom of Jin from C31 would have hit the 500 hour mark because I personally built the majority of 4 costumes. “Art of Black and White” might have hit 300? But everything else I’ve ever put on stage I’m pretty sure wouldn’t even have hit the 100 hour mark.

But more than that, I’m entirely in the same boat with those who say, how do you quantify hours spent on things like watching a pot boil – or watching paint dry? Does 5 hours of sanding plastic count as a skill? What if my gorgeous paint job is the equivalent of five minutes applying the paint, waiting 24 hours for it to dry?

Using time as a measure is skewed toward sewing – and I might add, sewing embellishments – which is unfair on a base level, before you even touch the truth that Masters can actually be faster at some of those techniques than a novice. I am actually a terrible embellisher if I have to do it by hand, so if I attempted hand-embroidery I would definitely hit that 500 hour mark. However, I can almost guarantee you my work would be awful and all of you would look askance at me and remind me that you expect better from me. And rightly so. 😉 Let’s not even get into the fact that I’m a professional who makes 100% of my income from a costume profession, and the most I’ve ever spent on a client’s costume is maybe 35-40 hours.

It’s true, workmanship judging isn’t easy. As technology rapidly changes to accommodate the desires of costume-builders and hobbyists, we’re going to face even bigger challenges balancing certain techniques and elements against others. In order to be as fair as possible to entrants, we have to always start from a level playing field, so the ICG guidelines are, IMO, the best way to ensure that level playing field. I have never had a problem with the ICG guidelines, and what’s important to me is that they’re not JUST applicable to Worldcon and Costume-Con. They’re universally applicable. We’ve found in practice, here in Wisconsin where tiny anime cons pop up like weeds every other year (and die off just as quickly) that a lot of people who think their system is better simply haven’t been exposed to an alternate idea, and once they participate in a different system, they experience first-hand just how workable, fair, and enjoyable it is, and go back to their little cons and suddenly the rules and structure of their masquerade changes to look more like ours.

So, while the northwest may have a collection of cons who work “that” way, they might just have never really been exposed to a masquerade run using ICG guidelines.

Stace

—In runacc@yahoogroups.com, <kevin@…> wrote :

I have to admit to a visceral “You have got to be kidding!” reaction to the “numbers of hours –> skill division” approach.

In part because I have seen novice entries that had been worked on FOREVER and still were very definitely appropriate to enter in the novice category.

 

 

Group: runacc Message: 2728 From: Byron Connell Date: 3/31/2015
Subject: Re: Convention wonking: Judging forms, skill levels etc.

 

I did not know Tonya was not on runacc.  I am less than comfortable discussing her suggestions in her absence.

 

Bruce, I hope you will invite her to join the discussion.
Byron

 

 

On Mar 30, 2015, at 8:00 PM, ‘Nora & Bruce Mai’ casamai@sbcglobal.net [runacc] <runacc@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

 

That – you’d have to pose to her on the D list.

 

Good discussions!   Keep it going!   Else, I’ll have to pull out another topic.   (hee hee hee)

 

Bruce

 

From: runacc@yahoogroups.com [mailto:runacc@yahoogroups.com] 
Sent: Monday, March 30, 2015 5:14 PM
To: runacc@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [runacc] Convention wonking: Judging forms, skill levels etc.



I don’t yet know what I “think” about the suggestions.  They’re very different from what I’m used to as a judges’ clerk, a judge, or a masquerade director and I don’t want to sound as if I’m stepping on them, especially if they’re from a different type of costume competition than our traditional form.  My experience primarily is at Worldcon and Costume-Con masquerades and at East Coast regional conventions, plus Archon.  Before I render opinions, I want more information that I hope Tonya can provide:

Skill Divisions:

— What events use the “hours of effort” measure to determine skill level?

— How long have they been doing so?

— How many entries do the events have (broadly speaking)?

— From where, geographically, do the events draw the entrants?

— What are the entires like (original, re-creation, assembled, science fiction, fantasy, media reproduction, and so forth)?

— How and why did you settle on this measure of skill vs. other measures?

Meet the Judges Panels:

— What events offer Meet the Judges panels?

— How long have they been doing so?

— How many/what proportion of the entrants participate?

— When during the event are the panels held?

— Are judges expected/obligated to comment publicly on specific entries?

Byron

On Mar 30, 2015, at 8:25 AM, ‘Nora & Bruce Mai’ casamai@sbcglobal.net [runacc] <runacc@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

 

So, since most folks see a need for this list, let’s get some discussion going.  When the lot of us get together, we narf about CC stuff.

Topic #1.   What does everyone here think of the recent suggestions by Tonya Adolfson (from the Gem State Guild) that the ICG (and by relation,  CC) on how to determine where one’s skill level is, as well as the “Meet the Judges” panel after the masq, and so on?

Discuss!

Bruce

 




 

 

 

 

Group: runacc Message: 2729 From: Nora & Bruce Mai Date: 3/31/2015
Subject: Re: Convention wonking: Judging forms, skill levels etc.

 

 

Not my place.   But if Betsy wants to, by all means.

 

Bruce

 

From: runacc@yahoogroups.com [mailto:runacc@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Tuesday, March 31, 2015 6:19 PM
To: runacc@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [runacc] Convention wonking: Judging forms, skill levels etc.

I did not know Tonya was not on runacc.  I am less than comfortable discussing her suggestions in her absence.

Bruce, I hope you will invite her to join the discussion.

Byron

 

On Mar 30, 2015, at 8:00 PM, ‘Nora & Bruce Mai’ casamai@sbcglobal.net [runacc] <runacc@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

 

That – you’d have to pose to her on the D list.

 

Good discussions!   Keep it going!   Else, I’ll have to pull out another topic.   (hee hee hee)

 

Bruce

 

From: runacc@yahoogroups.com [mailto:runacc@yahoogroups.com] 
Sent: Monday, March 30, 2015 5:14 PM
To: runacc@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [runacc] Convention wonking: Judging forms, skill levels etc.

I don’t yet know what I “think” about the suggestions.  They’re very different from what I’m used to as a judges’ clerk, a judge, or a masquerade director and I don’t want to sound as if I’m stepping on them, especially if they’re from a different type of costume competition than our traditional form.  My experience primarily is at Worldcon and Costume-Con masquerades and at East Coast regional conventions, plus Archon.  Before I render opinions, I want more information that I hope Tonya can provide:

Skill Divisions:

— What events use the “hours of effort” measure to determine skill level?

— How long have they been doing so?

— How many entries do the events have (broadly speaking)?

— From where, geographically, do the events draw the entrants?

— What are the entires like (original, re-creation, assembled, science fiction, fantasy, media reproduction, and so forth)?

— How and why did you settle on this measure of skill vs. other measures?

Meet the Judges Panels:

— What events offer Meet the Judges panels?

— How long have they been doing so?

— How many/what proportion of the entrants participate?

— When during the event are the panels held?

— Are judges expected/obligated to comment publicly on specific entries?

Byron

On Mar 30, 2015, at 8:25 AM, ‘Nora & Bruce Mai’ casamai@sbcglobal.net [runacc] <runacc@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

 

So, since most folks see a need for this list, let’s get some discussion going.  When the lot of us get together, we narf about CC stuff.

Topic #1.   What does everyone here think of the recent suggestions by Tonya Adolfson (from the Gem State Guild) that the ICG (and by relation,  CC) on how to determine where one’s skill level is, as well as the “Meet the Judges” panel after the masq, and so on?

Discuss!

Bruce

 

 

 

 

 

Group: runacc Message: 2730 From: Betsy Marks Delaney Date: 4/1/2015
Subject: Access to this list.

Well, now, that’s an entirely different question. So different, in fact, that I’ve changed the subject. So there.

Up till this very moment, RunaCC has been invite-only, generally designed as a catch-all conversation and archive devoted to SMOCing. (Secret Masters of Costuming. You know who you are.)
We’ve mostly done it in the halls of cons at 3am, or post con when the dust has settled. The list exists to serve a specific set of purposes – to share information from year to year and serve as an institutional memory when the memory fades over time and those who attended at the start can’t attend anymore, for whatever reason.
The list dates back to sometime after Costume-Con Fifteen, but while I’m technically the owner, the actual owner is Karen, and really always has been.
I attempted to compile a floating supply box (that I’m pretty sure got lost in transit sometime a year or so after CCXV). This list was a lot more successful.

If we were to announce an open invitation to join the conversation, we’d potentially invite more than we’ve bargained for. On the other hand, fresh perspective was always part of the point here, as well as the lofty goal of avoiding reinventing the wheel every single year.

 

So, I’ll put it to Karen (as Service Mark Holder) and to those already on the list: How do folks feel about opening the list up to folks who aren’t directly responsible for producing CCs?
I know what I think on the subject, but it’s really not up to me.
Thanks,
Betsy

 

 

On Tue, Mar 31, 2015 at 11:12 PM, ‘Nora & Bruce Mai’ casamai@sbcglobal.net [runacc] <runacc@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

 

Not my place.   But if Betsy wants to, by all means.

 

Bruce

Betsy Marks Delaney

http://www.hawkeswood.com/

 

 

Group: runacc Message: 2731 From: Byron Connell Date: 4/2/2015
Subject: Re: Access to this list.

 

I favor opening the list, by invitation, to costumers with ideas the SMOCs ought to consider. That would limit additional persons to those we feel should be part of the conversation.  Tonya is a good example.  Whether we agree with her suggestions or not, they deserve discussion and the person who made the suggestion really has to be part of that discussion.  There may be others.

 

Byron

 

 

On Apr 1, 2015, at 12:05 AM, Betsy Marks Delaney aramintamd@gmail.com [runacc] <runacc@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

 

Well, now, that’s an entirely different question. So different, in fact, that I’ve changed the subject. So there.

Up till this very moment, RunaCC has been invite-only, generally designed as a catch-all conversation and archive devoted to SMOCing. (Secret Masters of Costuming. You know who you are.)
We’ve mostly done it in the halls of cons at 3am, or post con when the dust has settled. The list exists to serve a specific set of purposes – to share information from year to year and serve as an institutional memory when the memory fades over time and those who attended at the start can’t attend anymore, for whatever reason.
The list dates back to sometime after Costume-Con Fifteen, but while I’m technically the owner, the actual owner is Karen, and really always has been.
I attempted to compile a floating supply box (that I’m pretty sure got lost in transit sometime a year or so after CCXV). This list was a lot more successful.

If we were to announce an open invitation to join the conversation, we’d potentially invite more than we’ve bargained for. On the other hand, fresh perspective was always part of the point here, as well as the lofty goal of avoiding reinventing the wheel every single year.

 

So, I’ll put it to Karen (as Service Mark Holder) and to those already on the list: How do folks feel about opening the list up to folks who aren’t directly responsible for producing CCs?
I know what I think on the subject, but it’s really not up to me.
Thanks,
Betsy

 

On Tue, Mar 31, 2015 at 11:12 PM, ‘Nora & Bruce Mai’ casamai@sbcglobal.net [runacc] <runacc@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

 

Not my place.   But if Betsy wants to, by all means.

 

Bruce

 

Betsy Marks Delaney

http://www.hawkeswood.com/

 

 

 

 

Group: runacc Message: 2732 From: Nora & Bruce Mai Date: 4/8/2015
Subject: Re: Access to this list.

 

 

I mostly agree with this, as long as it’s still by invitation.   It probably wouldn’t be of interest to most people, unless they have an interest in the behind the scenes of stuff that goes on at CC, anyway.   That said, I wouldn’t want it to become a forum for complaints by attendees.   This should be a place where future and former staff participants can speak honestly.

 

Bruce

 

From: runacc@yahoogroups.com [mailto:runacc@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Thursday, April 2, 2015 6:43 PM
To: runacc@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [runacc] Access to this list.

I favor opening the list, by invitation, to costumers with ideas the SMOCs ought to consider. That would limit additional persons to those we feel should be part of the conversation.  Tonya is a good example.  Whether we agree with her suggestions or not, they deserve discussion and the person who made the suggestion really has to be part of that discussion.  There may be others.

Byron

 

On Apr 1, 2015, at 12:05 AM, Betsy Marks Delaney aramintamd@gmail.com [runacc] <runacc@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

 

Well, now, that’s an entirely different question. So different, in fact, that I’ve changed the subject. So there.

 

Up till this very moment, RunaCC has been invite-only, generally designed as a catch-all conversation and archive devoted to SMOCing. (Secret Masters of Costuming. You know who you are.) 

 

We’ve mostly done it in the halls of cons at 3am, or post con when the dust has settled. The list exists to serve a specific set of purposes – to share information from year to year and serve as an institutional memory when the memory fades over time and those who attended at the start can’t attend anymore, for whatever reason.

 

The list dates back to sometime after Costume-Con Fifteen, but while I’m technically the owner, the actual owner is Karen, and really always has been.

 

I attempted to compile a floating supply box (that I’m pretty sure got lost in transit sometime a year or so after CCXV). This list was a lot more successful. 

 

If we were to announce an open invitation to join the conversation, we’d potentially invite more than we’ve bargained for. On the other hand, fresh perspective was always part of the point here, as well as the lofty goal of avoiding reinventing the wheel every single year.

 

So, I’ll put it to Karen (as Service Mark Holder) and to those already on the list: How do folks feel about opening the list up to folks who aren’t directly responsible for producing CCs?

 

I know what I think on the subject, but it’s really not up to me.

 

Thanks,

 

Betsy

 

On Tue, Mar 31, 2015 at 11:12 PM, ‘Nora & Bruce Mai’ casamai@sbcglobal.net [runacc] <runacc@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

 

Not my place.   But if Betsy wants to, by all means.

 

Bruce

 

 

Betsy Marks Delaney

http://www.hawkeswood.com/

 

 

 

 

Group: runacc Message: 2733 From: costumrs Date: 4/8/2015
Subject: Re: Access to this list.

 

I would support inviting a limited number of folks. Like Nora I think we don’t want the membership too large. But some new blood should always be sought out.
Pierrr
Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE smartphone

——– Original message ——–
From: “‘Nora & Bruce Mai’ casamai@sbcglobal.net [runacc]” <runacc@yahoogroups.com>
Date: 04/08/2015 7:39 PM (GMT-06:00)
To: runacc@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [runacc] Access to this list.

 

I mostly agree with this, as long as it’s still by invitation.   It probably wouldn’t be of interest to most people, unless they have an interest in the behind the scenes of stuff that goes on at CC, anyway.   That said, I wouldn’t want it to become a forum for complaints by attendees.   This should be a place where future and former staff participants can speak honestly.

 

Bruce

 

From: runacc@yahoogroups.com [mailto:runacc@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Thursday, April 2, 2015 6:43 PM
To: runacc@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [runacc] Access to this list.

I favor opening the list, by invitation, to costumers with ideas the SMOCs ought to consider. That would limit additional persons to those we feel should be part of the conversation.  Tonya is a good example.  Whether we agree with her suggestions or not, they deserve discussion and the person who made the suggestion really has to be part of that discussion.  There may be others.

Byron

 

On Apr 1, 2015, at 12:05 AM, Betsy Marks Delaney aramintamd@gmail.com [runacc] <runacc@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

 

Well, now, that’s an entirely different question. So different, in fact, that I’ve changed the subject. So there.

 

Up till this very moment, RunaCC has been invite-only, generally designed as a catch-all conversation and archive devoted to SMOCing. (Secret Masters of Costuming. You know who you are.) 

 

We’ve mostly done it in the halls of cons at 3am, or post con when the dust has settled. The list exists to serve a specific set of purposes – to share information from year to year and serve as an institutional memory when the memory fades over time and those who attended at the start can’t attend anymore, for whatever reason.

 

The list dates back to sometime after Costume-Con Fifteen, but while I’m technically the owner, the actual owner is Karen, and really always has been.

 

I attempted to compile a floating supply box (that I’m pretty sure got lost in transit sometime a year or so after CCXV). This list was a lot more successful. 

 

If we were to announce an open invitation to join the conversation, we’d potentially invite more than we’ve bargained for. On the other hand, fresh perspective was always part of the point here, as well as the lofty goal of avoiding reinventing the wheel every single year.

 

So, I’ll put it to Karen (as Service Mark Holder) and to those already on the list: How do folks feel about opening the list up to folks who aren’t directly responsible for producing CCs?

 

I know what I think on the subject, but it’s really not up to me.

 

Thanks,

 

Betsy

 

On Tue, Mar 31, 2015 at 11:12 PM, ‘Nora & Bruce Mai’ casamai@sbcglobal.net [runacc] <runacc@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

 

Not my place.   But if Betsy wants to, by all means.

 

Bruce

 

 

Betsy Marks Delaney

http://www.hawkeswood.com/

 

 

 

 

Group: runacc Message: 2734 From: Nora & Bruce Mai Date: 4/9/2015
Subject: Re: Access to this list.

 

 

The theory is, we should be getting new blood with each new bid that has a new concom.   I don’t recall seeing anyone from CC35 speaking up.    Am I mistaken?

 

Bruce

 

From: runacc@yahoogroups.com [mailto:runacc@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Wednesday, April 8, 2015 7:55 PM
To: runacc@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [runacc] Access to this list.

I would support inviting a limited number of folks. Like Nora I think we don’t want the membership too large. But some new blood should always be sought out.

Pierrr

Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE smartphone

——– Original message ——–
From: “‘Nora & Bruce Mai’ casamai@sbcglobal.net [runacc]” <runacc@yahoogroups.com>
Date: 04/08/2015 7:39 PM (GMT-06:00)
To: runacc@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [runacc] Access to this list.

I mostly agree with this, as long as it’s still by invitation.   It probably wouldn’t be of interest to most people, unless they have an interest in the behind the scenes of stuff that goes on at CC, anyway.   That said, I wouldn’t want it to become a forum for complaints by attendees.   This should be a place where future and former staff participants can speak honestly.

 

Bruce

 

From: runacc@yahoogroups.com [mailto:runacc@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Thursday, April 2, 2015 6:43 PM
To: runacc@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [runacc] Access to this list.

I favor opening the list, by invitation, to costumers with ideas the SMOCs ought to consider. That would limit additional persons to those we feel should be part of the conversation.  Tonya is a good example.  Whether we agree with her suggestions or not, they deserve discussion and the person who made the suggestion really has to be part of that discussion.  There may be others.

Byron

 

On Apr 1, 2015, at 12:05 AM, Betsy Marks Delaney aramintamd@gmail.com [runacc] <runacc@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

 

Well, now, that’s an entirely different question. So different, in fact, that I’ve changed the subject. So there.

 

Up till this very moment, RunaCC has been invite-only, generally designed as a catch-all conversation and archive devoted to SMOCing. (Secret Masters of Costuming. You know who you are.) 

 

We’ve mostly done it in the halls of cons at 3am, or post con when the dust has settled. The list exists to serve a specific set of purposes – to share information from year to year and serve as an institutional memory when the memory fades over time and those who attended at the start can’t attend anymore, for whatever reason.

 

The list dates back to sometime after Costume-Con Fifteen, but while I’m technically the owner, the actual owner is Karen, and really always has been.

 

I attempted to compile a floating supply box (that I’m pretty sure got lost in transit sometime a year or so after CCXV). This list was a lot more successful. 

 

If we were to announce an open invitation to join the conversation, we’d potentially invite more than we’ve bargained for. On the other hand, fresh perspective was always part of the point here, as well as the lofty goal of avoiding reinventing the wheel every single year.

 

So, I’ll put it to Karen (as Service Mark Holder) and to those already on the list: How do folks feel about opening the list up to folks who aren’t directly responsible for producing CCs?

 

I know what I think on the subject, but it’s really not up to me.

 

Thanks,

 

Betsy

 

On Tue, Mar 31, 2015 at 11:12 PM, ‘Nora & Bruce Mai’ casamai@sbcglobal.net [runacc] <runacc@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

 

Not my place.   But if Betsy wants to, by all means.

 

Bruce

 

 

Betsy Marks Delaney

http://www.hawkeswood.com/

 

 

 

 

Group: runacc Message: 2735 From: Byron Connell Date: 4/9/2015
Subject: Re: Access to this list.

 

Unfortunately, we’re not getting very much in the way of new blood since we tend to keep volunteering to serve on concoms.  I’m certainly guilty, as are others I could name.  Maybe we need term limits for SMOCs?

 

Byron

 

 

On Apr 9, 2015, at 4:21 PM, ‘Nora & Bruce Mai’ casamai@sbcglobal.net [runacc] <runacc@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

 

The theory is, we should be getting new blood with each new bid that has a new concom.   I don’t recall seeing anyone from CC35 speaking up.    Am I mistaken?

 

Bruce

 

From: runacc@yahoogroups.com [mailto:runacc@yahoogroups.com] 
Sent: Wednesday, April 8, 2015 7:55 PM
To: runacc@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [runacc] Access to this list.




I would support inviting a limited number of folks. Like Nora I think we don’t want the membership too large. But some new blood should always be sought out.

Pierrr

Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE smartphone



——– Original message ——–
From: “‘Nora & Bruce Mai’ casamai@sbcglobal.net [runacc]” <runacc@yahoogroups.com> 
Date: 04/08/2015 7:39 PM (GMT-06:00) 
To: runacc@yahoogroups.com 
Subject: RE: [runacc] Access to this list. 

  

I mostly agree with this, as long as it’s still by invitation.   It probably wouldn’t be of interest to most people, unless they have an interest in the behind the scenes of stuff that goes on at CC, anyway.   That said, I wouldn’t want it to become a forum for complaints by attendees.   This should be a place where future and former staff participants can speak honestly.

 

Bruce

 

From: runacc@yahoogroups.com [mailto:runacc@yahoogroups.com] 
Sent: Thursday, April 2, 2015 6:43 PM
To: runacc@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [runacc] Access to this list.



I favor opening the list, by invitation, to costumers with ideas the SMOCs ought to consider. That would limit additional persons to those we feel should be part of the conversation.  Tonya is a good example.  Whether we agree with her suggestions or not, they deserve discussion and the person who made the suggestion really has to be part of that discussion.  There may be others.

Byron

On Apr 1, 2015, at 12:05 AM, Betsy Marks Delaney aramintamd@gmail.com [runacc] <runacc@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

 

Well, now, that’s an entirely different question. So different, in fact, that I’ve changed the subject. So there.

 

Up till this very moment, RunaCC has been invite-only, generally designed as a catch-all conversation and archive devoted to SMOCing. (Secret Masters of Costuming. You know who you are.) 

 

We’ve mostly done it in the halls of cons at 3am, or post con when the dust has settled. The list exists to serve a specific set of purposes – to share information from year to year and serve as an institutional memory when the memory fades over time and those who attended at the start can’t attend anymore, for whatever reason.

 

The list dates back to sometime after Costume-Con Fifteen, but while I’m technically the owner, the actual owner is Karen, and really always has been.

 

I attempted to compile a floating supply box (that I’m pretty sure got lost in transit sometime a year or so after CCXV). This list was a lot more successful. 

 

If we were to announce an open invitation to join the conversation, we’d potentially invite more than we’ve bargained for. On the other hand, fresh perspective was always part of the point here, as well as the lofty goal of avoiding reinventing the wheel every single year.

 

So, I’ll put it to Karen (as Service Mark Holder) and to those already on the list: How do folks feel about opening the list up to folks who aren’t directly responsible for producing CCs?

 

I know what I think on the subject, but it’s really not up to me.

 

Thanks,

 

Betsy

 

On Tue, Mar 31, 2015 at 11:12 PM, ‘Nora & Bruce Mai’ casamai@sbcglobal.net [runacc] <runacc@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

 

Not my place.   But if Betsy wants to, by all means.

 

Bruce

 

 

Betsy Marks Delaney

http://www.hawkeswood.com/

 








 

 

 

 

Group: runacc Message: 2736 From: Betsy Marks Delaney Date: 4/10/2015
Subject: Re: Access to this list.

Byron has a point. We tend to reuse volunteers for our concoms, even if the chairs change. Theoretically, we all serve once, but there are folks who’ve served multiple times, and many of these people just swap jobs.

We haven’t had whole committees on this list, just chairs and treasurers (I think). We could theoretically broaden the invitation to more concom members, but there’s that same signal to noise ratio issue to deal with.
I know (I think) that Byron was being facetious, but I think term limits happen due to attrition and distraction. Just saying. 8)
-b

 

 

On Thu, Apr 9, 2015 at 7:33 PM, Byron Connell byronpconnell@gmail.com [runacc] <runacc@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

 

Unfortunately, we’re not getting very much in the way of new blood since we tend to keep volunteering to serve on concoms.  I’m certainly guilty, as are others I could name.  Maybe we need term limits for SMOCs?

Byron

Betsy Marks Delaney

http://www.hawkeswood.com/

 

 

Group: runacc Message: 2737 From: kittythecanuck Date: 4/10/2015
Subject: Re: Access to this list.
A few of us from CC35 joined when we won the bid.  We read the info, but as you said, it’s not very active right now so we haven’t been visiting much.

 

Group: runacc Message: 2738 From: JBdashoff@aol.com Date: 4/10/2015
Subject: Re: Access to this list.

 

Since icg is open for all discussions,
I think keeping runacc@ as a closed group  to which we can choose whom to add makes for a better discussion zone for costumecons.
Joni Dashoff Lunatyk Phrynge /DVCG/CC33 treasurer
ps since I’ve been listening without speaking for years I’ll bet Betsy forgot I was on this list.

 

 

—–Original Message—–

From: Betsy Marks Delaney aramintamd@gmail.com [runacc] <runacc@yahoogroups.com>

To: List, Run a CC <runacc@yahoogroups.com>

Sent: Wed, Apr 1, 2015 12:05 am

Subject: [runacc] Access to this list.

 

 

Well, now, that’s an entirely different question. So different, in fact, that I’ve changed the subject. So there.

Up till this very moment, RunaCC has been invite-only, generally designed as a catch-all conversation and archive devoted to SMOCing. (Secret Masters of Costuming. You know who you are.)
We’ve mostly done it in the halls of cons at 3am, or post con when the dust has settled. The list exists to serve a specific set of purposes – to share information from year to year and serve as an institutional memory when the memory fades over time and those who attended at the start can’t attend anymore, for whatever reason.
The list dates back to sometime after Costume-Con Fifteen, but while I’m technically the owner, the actual owner is Karen, and really always has been.
I attempted to compile a floating supply box (that I’m pretty sure got lost in transit sometime a year or so after CCXV). This list was a lot more successful.

If we were to announce an open invitation to join the conversation, we’d potentially invite more than we’ve bargained for. On the other hand, fresh perspective was always part of the point here, as well as the lofty goal of avoiding reinventing the wheel every single year.

So, I’ll put it to Karen (as Service Mark Holder) and to those already on the list: How do folks feel about opening the list up to folks who aren’t directly responsible for producing CCs?
I know what I think on the subject, but it’s really not up to me.
Thanks,
Betsy
On Tue, Mar 31, 2015 at 11:12 PM, ‘Nora & Bruce Mai’
casamai@sbcglobal.net [runacc]
<runacc@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

 

Not my place.   But if Betsy wants to, by all means.
 
Bruce

 

Betsy Marks Delaney

 

http://www.hawkeswood.com/

 

 

Group: runacc Message: 2739 From: Nora & Bruce Mai Date: 4/16/2015
Subject: Re: Access to this list – “term limits”

 

 

Getting new chapters to throw a CC helps.   We were needling certain MNSOC members at Teslacon last year, and they seemed to be at least mulling over the idea of a future bid.   At least, with more regions involved, it helps get a wider rotation of the “oldsters” who may feel obligated to step in if no bid arises.

 

Bruce

 

From: runacc@yahoogroups.com [mailto:runacc@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Friday, April 10, 2015 8:25 AM
To: List, Run a CC
Subject: Re: [runacc] Access to this list.

Byron has a point. We tend to reuse volunteers for our concoms, even if the chairs change. Theoretically, we all serve once, but there are folks who’ve served multiple times, and many of these people just swap jobs.

We haven’t had whole committees on this list, just chairs and treasurers (I think). We could theoretically broaden the invitation to more concom members, but there’s that same signal to noise ratio issue to deal with.

I know (I think) that Byron was being facetious, but I think term limits happen due to attrition and distraction. Just saying. 8)

-b

On Thu, Apr 9, 2015 at 7:33 PM, Byron Connell byronpconnell@gmail.com [runacc] <runacc@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Unfortunately, we’re not getting very much in the way of new blood since we tend to keep volunteering to serve on concoms.  I’m certainly guilty, as are others I could name.  Maybe we need term limits for SMOCs?

Byron

Betsy Marks Delaney

http://www.hawkeswood.com/

 

 

Group: runacc Message: 2740 From: Nora & Bruce Mai Date: 4/16/2015
Subject: Re: Access to this list.

 

 

Ah good!   Well, then, it’s time to stir up more trouble!    (rubs hands)

 

Bruce

 

From: runacc@yahoogroups.com [mailto:runacc@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Friday, April 10, 2015 9:26 AM
To: runacc@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [runacc] Access to this list.

A few of us from CC35 joined when we won the bid.  We read the info, but as you said, it’s not very active right now so we haven’t been visiting much.

 

 

Group: runacc Message: 2741 From: Nora & Bruce Mai Date: 4/16/2015
Subject: Hall costumes are becoming the Competition costumes

 

 

This oughtta stir some debate:   🙂

New subject:

More of our CC memberships are being filled with the ranks of costumers coming from the cosplay community.   At conventions that cater to that demographic, the emphasis is more about wearing their “wow” costumes in the halls for maximum effect.     Often, the costume contests are seemingly more about getting all their fans in one room to cheer them on, rather than a “masquerade”.   This environment was pretty much the case in Toronto.   Don’t get me wrong – it was great having all those new people.   And I applauded efforts to try to impress our “con culture upon all those new folks “.

I recognize that we must reach out to these costumers for the sake of getting new blood, but is there a risk of making too much of an accommodation?   I remember one person on Cosplay.com (a forum that, at least USED to be, a place CC concoms should be paying attention to) said “I spent a lot of time on my one costume and I want to wear it as much as I can”.   So, they wore it pretty much everywhere.   They were not the only ones.   Now, in some ways, I can’t blame them for thinking that way.   But, stay with me here.

Any “wow” factor has been lost by the time they get on stage.   Chances are, the judges will have seen them at some point, beforehand.   This makes the costume less “fresh”.   It’s also not as much fun for the judges because they’ve seen it already – part of the fun for them is the surprise factor.

I suspect this year’s CC will feel more “old school”, but I wonder what will happen at CC34 and subsequently, at 35?

Are the days of saving one’s competition costume for the stage fading?

Should there be more of an effort to encourage people not to wear their competition costume in the halls before the masquerade?

In my opinion, you have a better masquerade without a “preview”.

Discuss!

 

 

Group: runacc Message: 2742 From: staceylee25 Date: 4/17/2015
Subject: Re: Hall costumes are becoming the Competition costumes

Excellent topic.

I have always maintained, and even said so multiple times on cosplay.com (typing until my fingers cramped, so to speak), that people will have this viewpoint UNTIL someone shows them a different way of doing things. Whenever anyone has asked, and been open to all advice, I always say “just try it once, and you might realize you like the way it feels when you get that surprise factor in!” A lot of people default to what everyone else is doing, and don’t really think about it one way or the other, or if asked why they don’t save the surprise for the stage, parrot what everyone else is saying (“I want to wear it as much as I can”).

As the director for SF&F for 34, I want SO BADLY to put in a rule that you can’t wear your competition costume in the hall prior to Saturday. I want to. I haven’t yet because I don’t know what our members will want. What I’m unsure about is whether it’s enough to simply encourage people to save the surprise for the stage, to be genial and optimistic and phrase it was “well we’re really like to see…but in the end it’s your choice,” or if the only way to get people into the habit is to make it an explicit rule.

Because really, it is a habit. It’s something that, once you give it a try, you realize is actually a really good idea. Especially once your builds start getting so big that wearing it in the hall becomes almost impossible, and while some people learn from their mistakes, not all do. Some people will still wear their heavy, hot armor or their 10-foot-wide wings or their 20-foot long trains in the hall due to habit and inertia, rather than wising up and not getting their costumes dirty, damaged, or start to hate the mere thought of wearing it another five minutes.

CC32 was a good example of exactly why it’s a good idea to save your competition piece for the competition. The masquerade was way over-booked. It went on way too long. But what really made it a chore to sit through was the fact that we had seen 80% of these costumes in the halls all day – if not for two days! And when they came to stage, they didn’t bring us anything new to see – they didn’t do more than a circle-walk-on. We rolled our eyes at the glut of Frozen costumes, but I will at least give the genderswap guy kudos for putting on an actual performance. Sure, I had already been touching the beading on his costume a few hours before, so seeing the outfit was boring, but he took it up a notch. If you’re going to wear the costume all day and only walk across the stage? It’s pointless to even enter.

One of the bad habits the younger generation is picking up is the idea that if you’re wearing a costume, no matter how simple, you should enter it in competition. On the one hand, we do like to encourage novices to take a brave step onto stage, but on the other hand, when you have 50 slots for your masquerade and 40 of them are taken up by novices who are entering solo with a character they can’t even think up a performance for, merely because they have a costume, it weighs down the quality of the masquerade. It’s a catch-22 – you don’t want to discourage novices, but at the same time, a director has to consider the quality of the show and the value for the audience. If you’re going to get a hundred feedback forms post-con and most of them tell you the masquerade sucked because all the entries were boring and lame…well, as a director, you can’t improve the show with that kind of feedback. You’re at the mercy of who enters with what. So it really falls to the community as a whole to develop different habits, so that you can be both encouraging AND put on a great show.

What bugs me most is that wearing competition costumes in the hall actually does prejudice or fatigue the judges, and people don’t even think about this. They’re more focused on their own gratification rather than the whole concept of why the contest exists and what they’re doing in it. They don’t realize that the judges are not nuns sequestered away for the weekend, they’re congoers too and they’re in the halls enjoying themselves while subconsciously evaluating costumes. So by the time that same costume appears before the judging table, the judge may have already made up their mind. Or they’re so plain tired of seeing the costume that they don’t care. It’s unfortunate, but it’s human nature, and it’s something you can’t steel your mind against. If you can’t prevent the judges from THINKING about the costumes, you can at least prevent them from SEEING the costumes by forbidding the wearing.

Maybe it also comes down to encouraging people with “yes, I know you worked hard and want to wear it a lot. Wear it AFTER the show. Wear it Sunday and Monday. Wear it at the NEXT con you’re going to, when it’s no longer in competition and you can enjoy it.” But mostly it’s about developing the habit. I don’t think the days of the surprise on stage are over, and I personally want to see this particular habit stay relevant. I just don’t know, outside of long-windedly blathering on cosplay forums/facebook to try to get it through thick heads (like I do) HOW to cultivate the habit. HOW to get people to give the surprise a try.

At least people who are working so hard on a build that it isn’t finished until the day of the competition automatically save their costume for the stage. It’s probably not a preferable method but it works. 😉

Stace

—In runacc@yahoogroups.com, <casamai@…> wrote :

 

I recognize that we must reach out to these costumers for the sake of getting new blood, but is there a risk of making too much of an accommodation?   I remember one person on Cosplay.com (a forum that, at least USED to be, a place CC concoms should be paying attention to) said “I spent a lot of time on my one costume and I want to wear it as much as I can”.   So, they wore it pretty much everywhere.   They were not the only ones.   Now, in some ways, I can’t blame them for thinking that way.   But, stay with me here.

Any “wow” factor has been lost by the time they get on stage.   Chances are, the judges will have seen them at some point, beforehand.   This makes the costume less “fresh”.   It’s also not as much fun for the judges because they’ve seen it already – part of the fun for them is the surprise factor.

Are the days of saving one’s competition costume for the stage fading?

Should there be more of an effort to encourage people not to wear their competition costume in the halls before the masquerade?

In my opinion, you have a better masquerade without a “preview”.

 

Group: runacc Message: 2743 From: Kevin Roche Date: 4/17/2015
Subject: Re: Hall costumes are becoming the Competition costumes

Stace — I have a radical idea for you.

“Costumes seen in the hall beforehand are not eligible for Best in Show. ”

On Friday, April 17, 2015, staceylee25@yahoo.com [runacc] <runacc@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

 

Excellent topic.

I have always maintained, and even said so multiple times on cosplay.com (typing until my fingers cramped, so to speak), that people will have this viewpoint UNTIL someone shows them a different way of doing things. Whenever anyone has asked, and been open to all advice, I always say “just try it once, and you might realize you like the way it feels when you get that surprise factor in!” A lot of people default to what everyone else is doing, and don’t really think about it one way or the other, or if asked why they don’t save the surprise for the stage, parrot what everyone else is saying (“I want to wear it as much as I can”).

As the director for SF&F for 34, I want SO BADLY to put in a rule that you can’t wear your competition costume in the hall prior to Saturday. I want to. I haven’t yet because I don’t know what our members will want. What I’m unsure about is whether it’s enough to simply encourage people to save the surprise for the stage, to be genial and optimistic and phrase it was “well we’re really like to see…but in the end it’s your choice,” or if the only way to get people into the habit is to make it an explicit rule.

Because really, it is a habit. It’s something that, once you give it a try, you realize is actually a really good idea. Especially once your builds start getting so big that wearing it in the hall becomes almost impossible, and while some people learn from their mistakes, not all do. Some people will still wear their heavy, hot armor or their 10-foot-wide wings or their 20-foot long trains in the hall due to habit and inertia, rather than wising up and not getting their costumes dirty, damaged, or start to hate the mere thought of wearing it another five minutes.

CC32 was a good example of exactly why it’s a good idea to save your competition piece for the competition. The masquerade was way over-booked. It went on way too long. But what really made it a chore to sit through was the fact that we had seen 80% of these costumes in the halls all day – if not for two days! And when they came to stage, they didn’t bring us anything new to see – they didn’t do more than a circle-walk-on. We rolled our eyes at the glut of Frozen costumes, but I will at least give the genderswap guy kudos for putting on an actual performance. Sure, I had already been touching the beading on his costume a few hours before, so seeing the outfit was boring, but he took it up a notch. If you’re going to wear the costume all day and only walk across the stage? It’s pointless to even enter.

One of the bad habits the younger generation is picking up is the idea that if you’re wearing a costume, no matter how simple, you should enter it in competition. On the one hand, we do like to encourage novices to take a brave step onto stage, but on the other hand, when you have 50 slots for your masquerade and 40 of them are taken up by novices who are entering solo with a character they can’t even think up a performance for, merely because they have a costume, it weighs down the quality of the masquerade. It’s a catch-22 – you don’t want to discourage novices, but at the same time, a director has to consider the quality of the show and the value for the audience. If you’re going to get a hundred feedback forms post-con and most of them tell you the masquerade sucked because all the entries were boring and lame…well, as a director, you can’t improve the show with that kind of feedback. You’re at the mercy of who enters with what. So it really falls to the community as a whole to develop different habits, so that you can be both encouraging AND put on a great show.

What bugs me most is that wearing competition costumes in the hall actually does prejudice or fatigue the judges, and people don’t even think about this. They’re more focused on their own gratification rather than the whole concept of why the contest exists and what they’re doing in it. They don’t realize that the judges are not nuns sequestered away for the weekend, they’re congoers too and they’re in the halls enjoying themselves while subconsciously evaluating costumes. So by the time that same costume appears before the judging table, the judge may have already made up their mind. Or they’re so plain tired of seeing the costume that they don’t care. It’s unfortunate, but it’s human nature, and it’s something you can’t steel your mind against. If you can’t prevent the judges from THINKING about the costumes, you can at least prevent them from SEEING the costumes by forbidding the wearing.

Maybe it also comes down to encouraging people with “yes, I know you worked hard and want to wear it a lot. Wear it AFTER the show. Wear it Sunday and Monday. Wear it at the NEXT con you’re going to, when it’s no longer in competition and you can enjoy it.” But mostly it’s about developing the habit. I don’t think the days of the surprise on stage are over, and I personally want to see this particular habit stay relevant. I just don’t know, outside of long-windedly blathering on cosplay forums/facebook to try to get it through thick heads (like I do) HOW to cultivate the habit. HOW to get people to give the surprise a try.

At least people who are working so hard on a build that it isn’t finished until the day of the competition automatically save their costume for the stage. It’s probably not a preferable method but it works. 😉

Stace

—In runacc@yahoogroups.com, <casamai@…> wrote :

I recognize that we must reach out to these costumers for the sake of getting new blood, but is there a risk of making too much of an accommodation?   I remember one person on Cosplay.com (a forum that, at least USED to be, a place CC concoms should be paying attention to) said “I spent a lot of time on my one costume and I want to wear it as much as I can”.   So, they wore it pretty much everywhere.   They were not the only ones.   Now, in some ways, I can’t blame them for thinking that way.   But, stay with me here.

Any “wow” factor has been lost by the time they get on stage.   Chances are, the judges will have seen them at some point, beforehand.   This makes the costume less “fresh”.   It’s also not as much fun for the judges because they’ve seen it already – part of the fun for them is the surprise factor.

Are the days of saving one’s competition costume for the stage fading?

Should there be more of an effort to encourage people not to wear their competition costume in the halls before the masquerade?

In my opinion, you have a better masquerade without a “preview”.

 

 

 

 

Group: runacc Message: 2744 From: ECM Date: 4/17/2015
Subject: Re: Hall costumes are becoming the Competition costumes

 

Betsy, I agree wholeheartedly!  And I agree that you must continue to repeat yourself on their websites.

However, I’m a little sneaky – as a person “my age” is entitled to be.  I would be very generous with hall costume awards.  VERY generous.  Then put in the rule that costumes that have won hall costume awards will be in the masquerade as “exhibition only.  Not in competition.”  It won’t shorten the parade any, but might have some impact on the costumers, and will surely help the judges.

Elaine Mami
who is urging everyone to vote for CC36 in San Diego!


 

 

Excellent topic.

I have always maintained, and even said so multiple times on cosplay.com (typing until my fingers cramped, so to speak), that people will have this viewpoint UNTIL someone shows them a different way of doing things. Whenever anyone has asked, and been open to all advice, I always say “just try it once, and you might realize you like the way it feels when you get that surprise factor in!” A lot of people default to what everyone else is doing, and don’t really think about it one way or the other, or if asked why they don’t save the surprise for the stage, parrot what everyone else is saying (“I want to wear it as much as I can”).

As the director for SF&F for 34, I want SO BADLY to put in a rule that you can’t wear your competition costume in the hall prior to Saturday. I want to. I haven’t yet because I don’t know what our members will want. What I’m unsure about is whether it’s enough to simply encourage people to save the surprise for the stage, to be genial and optimistic and phrase it was “well we’re really like to see…but in the end it’s your choice,” or if the only way to get people into the habit is to make it an explicit rule.

Because really, it is a habit. It’s something that, once you give it a try, you realize is actually a really good idea. Especially once your builds start getting so big that wearing it in the hall becomes almost impossible, and while some people learn from their mistakes, not all do. Some people will still wear their heavy, hot armor or their 10-foot-wide wings or their 20-foot long trains in the hall due to habit and inertia, rather than wising up and not getting their costumes dirty, damaged, or start to hate the mere thought of wearing it another five minutes.

CC32 was a good example of exactly why it’s a good idea to save your competition piece for the competition. The masquerade was way over-booked. It went on way too long. But what really made it a chore to sit through was the fact that we had seen 80% of these costumes in the halls all day – if not for two days! And when they came to stage, they didn’t bring us anything new to see – they didn’t do more than a circle-walk-on. We rolled our eyes at the glut of Frozen costumes, but I will at least give the genderswap guy kudos for putting on an actual performance. Sure, I had already been touching the beading on his costume a few hours before, so seeing the outfit was boring, but he took it up a notch. If you’re going to wear the costume all day and only walk across the stage? It’s pointless to even enter.

One of the bad habits the younger generation is picking up is the idea that if you’re wearing a costume, no matter how simple, you should enter it in competition. On the one hand, we do like to encourage novices to take a brave step onto stage, but on the other hand, when you have 50 slots for your masquerade and 40 of them are taken up by novices who are entering solo with a character they can’t even think up a performance for, merely because they have a costume, it weighs down the quality of the masquerade. It’s a catch-22 – you don’t want to discourage novices, but at the same time, a director has to consider the quality of the show and the value for the audience. If you’re going to get a hundred feedback forms post-con and most of them tell you the masquerade sucked because all the entries were boring and lame…well, as a director, you can’t improve the show with that kind of feedback. You’re at the mercy of who enters with what. So it really falls to the community as a whole to develop different habits, so that you can be both encouraging AND put on a great show.

What bugs me most is that wearing competition costumes in the hall actually does prejudice or fatigue the judges, and people don’t even think about this. They’re more focused on their own gratification rather than the whole concept of why the contest exists and what they’re doing in it. They don’t realize that the judges are not nuns sequestered away for the weekend, they’re congoers too and they’re in the halls enjoying themselves while subconsciously evaluating costumes. So by the time that same costume appears before the judging table, the judge may have already made up their mind. Or they’re so plain tired of seeing the costume that they don’t care. It’s unfortunate, but it’s human nature, and it’s something you can’t steel your mind against. If you can’t prevent the judges from THINKING about the costumes, you can at least prevent them from SEEING the costumes by forbidding the wearing.

Maybe it also comes down to encouraging people with “yes, I know you worked hard and want to wear it a lot. Wear it AFTER the show. Wear it Sunday and Monday. Wear it at the NEXT con you’re going to, when it’s no longer in competition and you can enjoy it.” But mostly it’s about developing the habit. I don’t think the days of the surprise on stage are over, and I personally want to see this particular habit stay relevant. I just don’t know, outside of long-windedly blathering on cosplay forums/facebook to try to get it through thick heads (like I do) HOW to cultivate the habit. HOW to get people to give the surprise a try.

At least people who are working so hard on a build that it isn’t finished until the day of the competition automatically save their costume for the stage. It’s probably not a preferable method but it works. 😉

Stace

—In runacc@yahoogroups.com, <casamai@…> wrote :

 

I recognize that we must reach out to these costumers for the sake of getting new blood, but is there a risk of making too much of an accommodation?   I remember one person on Cosplay.com (a forum that, at least USED to be, a place CC concoms should be paying attention to) said “I spent a lot of time on my one costume and I want to wear it as much as I can”.   So, they wore it pretty much everywhere.   They were not the only ones.   Now, in some ways, I can’t blame them for thinking that way.   But, stay with me here.

Any “wow” factor has been lost by the time they get on stage.   Chances are, the judges will have seen them at some point, beforehand.   This makes the costume less “fresh”.   It’s also not as much fun for the judges because they’ve seen it already – part of the fun for them is the surprise factor.

Are the days of saving one’s competition costume for the stage fading?

Should there be more of an effort to encourage people not to wear their competition costume in the halls before the masquerade?

In my opinion, you have a better masquerade without a “preview”.

 

 

 

Group: runacc Message: 2745 From: Betsy Marks Delaney Date: 4/17/2015
Subject: Re: Hall costumes are becoming the Competition costumes

Somehow I think this response was intended for Stacie. 8)

-B

 

 

On Fri, Apr 17, 2015 at 2:03 PM, ECM ecmami@hotmail.com [runacc] <runacc@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

 

Betsy, I agree wholeheartedly!  And I agree that you must continue to repeat yourself on their websites.

However, I’m a little sneaky – as a person “my age” is entitled to be.  I would be very generous with hall costume awards.  VERY generous.  Then put in the rule that costumes that have won hall costume awards will be in the masquerade as “exhibition only.  Not in competition.”  It won’t shorten the parade any, but might have some impact on the costumers, and will surely help the judges.

Elaine Mami
who is urging everyone to vote for CC36 in San Diego!


 

 

Excellent topic.

I have always maintained, and even said so multiple times on cosplay.com (typing until my fingers cramped, so to speak), that people will have this viewpoint UNTIL someone shows them a different way of doing things. Whenever anyone has asked, and been open to all advice, I always say “just try it once, and you might realize you like the way it feels when you get that surprise factor in!” A lot of people default to what everyone else is doing, and don’t really think about it one way or the other, or if asked why they don’t save the surprise for the stage, parrot what everyone else is saying (“I want to wear it as much as I can”).

As the director for SF&F for 34, I want SO BADLY to put in a rule that you can’t wear your competition costume in the hall prior to Saturday. I want to. I haven’t yet because I don’t know what our members will want. What I’m unsure about is whether it’s enough to simply encourage people to save the surprise for the stage, to be genial and optimistic and phrase it was “well we’re really like to see…but in the end it’s your choice,” or if the only way to get people into the habit is to make it an explicit rule.

Because really, it is a habit. It’s something that, once you give it a try, you realize is actually a really good idea. Especially once your builds start getting so big that wearing it in the hall becomes almost impossible, and while some people learn from their mistakes, not all do. Some people will still wear their heavy, hot armor or their 10-foot-wide wings or their 20-foot long trains in the hall due to habit and inertia, rather than wising up and not getting their costumes dirty, damaged, or start to hate the mere thought of wearing it another five minutes.

CC32 was a good example of exactly why it’s a good idea to save your competition piece for the competition. The masquerade was way over-booked. It went on way too long. But what really made it a chore to sit through was the fact that we had seen 80% of these costumes in the halls all day – if not for two days! And when they came to stage, they didn’t bring us anything new to see – they didn’t do more than a circle-walk-on. We rolled our eyes at the glut of Frozen costumes, but I will at least give the genderswap guy kudos for putting on an actual performance. Sure, I had already been touching the beading on his costume a few hours before, so seeing the outfit was boring, but he took it up a notch. If you’re going to wear the costume all day and only walk across the stage? It’s pointless to even enter.

One of the bad habits the younger generation is picking up is the idea that if you’re wearing a costume, no matter how simple, you should enter it in competition. On the one hand, we do like to encourage novices to take a brave step onto stage, but on the other hand, when you have 50 slots for your masquerade and 40 of them are taken up by novices who are entering solo with a character they can’t even think up a performance for, merely because they have a costume, it weighs down the quality of the masquerade. It’s a catch-22 – you don’t want to discourage novices, but at the same time, a director has to consider the quality of the show and the value for the audience. If you’re going to get a hundred feedback forms post-con and most of them tell you the masquerade sucked because all the entries were boring and lame…well, as a director, you can’t improve the show with that kind of feedback. You’re at the mercy of who enters with what. So it really falls to the community as a whole to develop different habits, so that you can be both encouraging AND put on a great show.

What bugs me most is that wearing competition costumes in the hall actually does prejudice or fatigue the judges, and people don’t even think about this. They’re more focused on their own gratification rather than the whole concept of why the contest exists and what they’re doing in it. They don’t realize that the judges are not nuns sequestered away for the weekend, they’re congoers too and they’re in the halls enjoying themselves while subconsciously evaluating costumes. So by the time that same costume appears before the judging table, the judge may have already made up their mind. Or they’re so plain tired of seeing the costume that they don’t care. It’s unfortunate, but it’s human nature, and it’s something you can’t steel your mind against. If you can’t prevent the judges from THINKING about the costumes, you can at least prevent them from SEEING the costumes by forbidding the wearing.

Maybe it also comes down to encouraging people with “yes, I know you worked hard and want to wear it a lot. Wear it AFTER the show. Wear it Sunday and Monday. Wear it at the NEXT con you’re going to, when it’s no longer in competition and you can enjoy it.” But mostly it’s about developing the habit. I don’t think the days of the surprise on stage are over, and I personally want to see this particular habit stay relevant. I just don’t know, outside of long-windedly blathering on cosplay forums/facebook to try to get it through thick heads (like I do) HOW to cultivate the habit. HOW to get people to give the surprise a try.

At least people who are working so hard on a build that it isn’t finished until the day of the competition automatically save their costume for the stage. It’s probably not a preferable method but it works. 😉

Stace

—In runacc@yahoogroups.com, <casamai@…> wrote :

I recognize that we must reach out to these costumers for the sake of getting new blood, but is there a risk of making too much of an accommodation?   I remember one person on Cosplay.com (a forum that, at least USED to be, a place CC concoms should be paying attention to) said “I spent a lot of time on my one costume and I want to wear it as much as I can”.   So, they wore it pretty much everywhere.   They were not the only ones.   Now, in some ways, I can’t blame them for thinking that way.   But, stay with me here.

Any “wow” factor has been lost by the time they get on stage.   Chances are, the judges will have seen them at some point, beforehand.   This makes the costume less “fresh”.   It’s also not as much fun for the judges because they’ve seen it already – part of the fun for them is the surprise factor.

Are the days of saving one’s competition costume for the stage fading?

Should there be more of an effort to encourage people not to wear their competition costume in the halls before the masquerade?

In my opinion, you have a better masquerade without a “preview”.

 

 

 


Betsy Marks Delaney

http://www.hawkeswood.com/

 

 

Group: runacc Message: 2746 From: Kaijugal . Date: 4/17/2015
Subject: Re: Hall costumes are becoming the Competition costumes

 

As someone who works with the Toronto/Montreal/Ottawa—Ontario/Quebec community extensively,

I encourage costumers to save their new “wow” costumes for the masquerade, and wear last years “Wow” costume in the halls. Alternatively save “Wow” for Sunday after the masquerade has taken place. It’s not always easy as people usually are scrambling to leave on Sunday and drive back home for work.

The second should be easier to encourage at Costume-Con where people often stay the extra  day and aren’t always scrambling at 10am Sunday to check out of their hotel rooms. Also the post masquerade Show-and-Tell sessions on Sunday really gave first timers a new POV on this. 🙂

Dawn McKechnie – President – Fibre Fantasy Artists of Canada


To: runacc@yahoogroups.com
From: runacc@yahoogroups.com
Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2015 21:03:10 -0500
Subject: [runacc] Hall costumes are becoming the Competition costumes

 

 

This oughtta stir some debate:   🙂

New subject:

More of our CC memberships are being filled with the ranks of costumers coming from the cosplay community.   At conventions that cater to that demographic, the emphasis is more about wearing their “wow” costumes in the halls for maximum effect.     Often, the costume contests are seemingly more about getting all their fans in one room to cheer them on, rather than a “masquerade”.   This environment was pretty much the case in Toronto.   Don’t get me wrong – it was great having all those new people.   And I applauded efforts to try to impress our “con culture upon all those new folks “.

I recognize that we must reach out to these costumers for the sake of getting new blood, but is there a risk of making too much of an accommodation?   I remember one person on Cosplay.com (a forum that, at least USED to be, a place CC concoms should be paying attention to) said “I spent a lot of time on my one costume and I want to wear it as much as I can”.   So, they wore it pretty much everywhere.   They were not the only ones.   Now, in some ways, I can’t blame them for thinking that way.   But, stay with me here.

Any “wow” factor has been lost by the time they get on stage.   Chances are, the judges will have seen them at some point, beforehand.   This makes the costume less “fresh”.   It’s also not as much fun for the judges because they’ve seen it already – part of the fun for them is the surprise factor.

I suspect this year’s CC will feel more “old school”, but I wonder what will happen at CC34 and subsequently, at 35?

Are the days of saving one’s competition costume for the stage fading?

Should there be more of an effort to encourage people not to wear their competition costume in the halls before the masquerade?

In my opinion, you have a better masquerade without a “preview”.

Discuss!

 

 

 

Group: runacc Message: 2747 From: Kaijugal . Date: 4/17/2015
Subject: Re: Hall costumes are becoming the Competition costumes

 

Stace wrote: “genderswap guy kudos for putting on an actual performance” , “Genderswap guy” was Niq Vanderaa (Detailed Illusion), one half of Canada’s World Cosplay Summit Team for this coming year.

Dawn McKechnie – President – Fibre Fantasy Artists of Canada


To: runacc@yahoogroups.com
From: runacc@yahoogroups.com
Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2015 09:40:08 -0700
Subject: [runacc] Re: Hall costumes are becoming the Competition costumes

 

Excellent topic.

I have always maintained, and even said so multiple times on cosplay.com (typing until my fingers cramped, so to speak), that people will have this viewpoint UNTIL someone shows them a different way of doing things. Whenever anyone has asked, and been open to all advice, I always say “just try it once, and you might realize you like the way it feels when you get that surprise factor in!” A lot of people default to what everyone else is doing, and don’t really think about it one way or the other, or if asked why they don’t save the surprise for the stage, parrot what everyone else is saying (“I want to wear it as much as I can”).

As the director for SF&F for 34, I want SO BADLY to put in a rule that you can’t wear your competition costume in the hall prior to Saturday. I want to. I haven’t yet because I don’t know what our members will want. What I’m unsure about is whether it’s enough to simply encourage people to save the surprise for the stage, to be genial and optimistic and phrase it was “well we’re really like to see…but in the end it’s your choice,” or if the only way to get people into the habit is to make it an explicit rule.

Because really, it is a habit. It’s something that, once you give it a try, you realize is actually a really good idea. Especially once your builds start getting so big that wearing it in the hall becomes almost impossible, and while some people learn from their mistakes, not all do. Some people will still wear their heavy, hot armor or their 10-foot-wide wings or their 20-foot long trains in the hall due to habit and inertia, rather than wising up and not getting their costumes dirty, damaged, or start to hate the mere thought of wearing it another five minutes.

CC32 was a good example of exactly why it’s a good idea to save your competition piece for the competition. The masquerade was way over-booked. It went on way too long. But what really made it a chore to sit through was the fact that we had seen 80% of these costumes in the halls all day – if not for two days! And when they came to stage, they didn’t bring us anything new to see – they didn’t do more than a circle-walk-on. We rolled our eyes at the glut of Frozen costumes, but I will at least give the genderswap guy kudos for putting on an actual performance. Sure, I had already been touching the beading on his costume a few hours before, so seeing the outfit was boring, but he took it up a notch. If you’re going to wear the costume all day and only walk across the stage? It’s pointless to even enter.

One of the bad habits the younger generation is picking up is the idea that if you’re wearing a costume, no matter how simple, you should enter it in competition. On the one hand, we do like to encourage novices to take a brave step onto stage, but on the other hand, when you have 50 slots for your masquerade and 40 of them are taken up by novices who are entering solo with a character they can’t even think up a performance for, merely because they have a costume, it weighs down the quality of the masquerade. It’s a catch-22 – you don’t want to discourage novices, but at the same time, a director has to consider the quality of the show and the value for the audience. If you’re going to get a hundred feedback forms post-con and most of them tell you the masquerade sucked because all the entries were boring and lame…well, as a director, you can’t improve the show with that kind of feedback. You’re at the mercy of who enters with what. So it really falls to the community as a whole to develop different habits, so that you can be both encouraging AND put on a great show.

What bugs me most is that wearing competition costumes in the hall actually does prejudice or fatigue the judges, and people don’t even think about this. They’re more focused on their own gratification rather than the whole concept of why the contest exists and what they’re doing in it. They don’t realize that the judges are not nuns sequestered away for the weekend, they’re congoers too and they’re in the halls enjoying themselves while subconsciously evaluating costumes. So by the time that same costume appears before the judging table, the judge may have already made up their mind. Or they’re so plain tired of seeing the costume that they don’t care. It’s unfortunate, but it’s human nature, and it’s something you can’t steel your mind against. If you can’t prevent the judges from THINKING about the costumes, you can at least prevent them from SEEING the costumes by forbidding the wearing.

Maybe it also comes down to encouraging people with “yes, I know you worked hard and want to wear it a lot. Wear it AFTER the show. Wear it Sunday and Monday. Wear it at the NEXT con you’re going to, when it’s no longer in competition and you can enjoy it.” But mostly it’s about developing the habit. I don’t think the days of the surprise on stage are over, and I personally want to see this particular habit stay relevant. I just don’t know, outside of long-windedly blathering on cosplay forums/facebook to try to get it through thick heads (like I do) HOW to cultivate the habit. HOW to get people to give the surprise a try.

At least people who are working so hard on a build that it isn’t finished until the day of the competition automatically save their costume for the stage. It’s probably not a preferable method but it works. 😉

Stace

—In runacc@yahoogroups.com, <casamai@…> wrote :

 

I recognize that we must reach out to these costumers for the sake of getting new blood, but is there a risk of making too much of an accommodation?   I remember one person on Cosplay.com (a forum that, at least USED to be, a place CC concoms should be paying attention to) said “I spent a lot of time on my one costume and I want to wear it as much as I can”.   So, they wore it pretty much everywhere.   They were not the only ones.   Now, in some ways, I can’t blame them for thinking that way.   But, stay with me here.

Any “wow” factor has been lost by the time they get on stage.   Chances are, the judges will have seen them at some point, beforehand.   This makes the costume less “fresh”.   It’s also not as much fun for the judges because they’ve seen it already – part of the fun for them is the surprise factor.

Are the days of saving one’s competition costume for the stage fading?

Should there be more of an effort to encourage people not to wear their competition costume in the halls before the masquerade?

In my opinion, you have a better masquerade without a “preview”.

 

 

 

Group: runacc Message: 2748 From: Byron Connell Date: 4/17/2015
Subject: Re: Access to this list – “term limits”

 

As I read the ConStitution,it does not limit bids to those from ICG chapters.  If we want to broaden participation, perhaps we should encourage other costuming groups to bid to host Costume-Con.

 

Byron

 

 

On Apr 16, 2015, at 9:39 PM, ‘Nora & Bruce Mai’ casamai@sbcglobal.net [runacc] <runacc@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

 

Getting new chapters to throw a CC helps.   We were needling certain MNSOC members at Teslacon last year, and they seemed to be at least mulling over the idea of a future bid.   At least, with more regions involved, it helps get a wider rotation of the “oldsters” who may feel obligated to step in if no bid arises.

 

Bruce

 

From: runacc@yahoogroups.com [mailto:runacc@yahoogroups.com] 
Sent: Friday, April 10, 2015 8:25 AM
To: List, Run a CC
Subject: Re: [runacc] Access to this list.




Byron has a point. We tend to reuse volunteers for our concoms, even if the chairs change. Theoretically, we all serve once, but there are folks who’ve served multiple times, and many of these people just swap jobs.

We haven’t had whole committees on this list, just chairs and treasurers (I think). We could theoretically broaden the invitation to more concom members, but there’s that same signal to noise ratio issue to deal with.

I know (I think) that Byron was being facetious, but I think term limits happen due to attrition and distraction. Just saying. 8)

-b

On Thu, Apr 9, 2015 at 7:33 PM, Byron Connell byronpconnell@gmail.com [runacc] <runacc@yahoogroups.com> wrote:



Unfortunately, we’re not getting very much in the way of new blood since we tend to keep volunteering to serve on concoms.  I’m certainly guilty, as are others I could name.  Maybe we need term limits for SMOCs?

Byron

 

Betsy Marks Delaney

http://www.hawkeswood.com/




 

 

 

 

Group: runacc Message: 2749 From: Nora & Bruce Mai Date: 4/17/2015
Subject: Re: Access to this list – bid groups

 

 

True enough, but to really get the manpower, you’re frequently drawing from whole chapters.   Of course, that’s not been the trend more recently.   Yet, other groups need to make sure they make an effort to become part of and understand our community/culture.  Otherwise, we run into the problem of concoms who think running a CC is interchangeable with any other con they’ve staffed.   No – no, it’s not.

 

You might recall we had a bid from Eau Claire a few years back.   (Practically) no one knew who they were and they did not win the bid, not surprisingly.

 

 

Bruce

 

From: runacc@yahoogroups.com [mailto:runacc@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Friday, April 17, 2015 5:58 PM
To: runacc@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [runacc] Access to this list – “term limits”

As I read the ConStitution,it does not limit bids to those from ICG chapters.  If we want to broaden participation, perhaps we should encourage other costuming groups to bid to host Costume-Con.

Byron

 

On Apr 16, 2015, at 9:39 PM, ‘Nora & Bruce Mai’ casamai@sbcglobal.net [runacc] <runacc@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

 

Getting new chapters to throw a CC helps.   We were needling certain MNSOC members at Teslacon last year, and they seemed to be at least mulling over the idea of a future bid.   At least, with more regions involved, it helps get a wider rotation of the “oldsters” who may feel obligated to step in if no bid arises.

 

Bruce

 

From: runacc@yahoogroups.com [mailto:runacc@yahoogroups.com] 
Sent: Friday, April 10, 2015 8:25 AM
To: List, Run a CC
Subject: Re: [runacc] Access to this list.

Byron has a point. We tend to reuse volunteers for our concoms, even if the chairs change. Theoretically, we all serve once, but there are folks who’ve served multiple times, and many of these people just swap jobs.

We haven’t had whole committees on this list, just chairs and treasurers (I think). We could theoretically broaden the invitation to more concom members, but there’s that same signal to noise ratio issue to deal with.

I know (I think) that Byron was being facetious, but I think term limits happen due to attrition and distraction. Just saying. 8)

-b

On Thu, Apr 9, 2015 at 7:33 PM, Byron Connell byronpconnell@gmail.com [runacc] <runacc@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Unfortunately, we’re not getting very much in the way of new blood since we tend to keep volunteering to serve on concoms.  I’m certainly guilty, as are others I could name.  Maybe we need term limits for SMOCs?

Byron

 

Betsy Marks Delaney

http://www.hawkeswood.com/

 

 

 

 

Group: runacc Message: 2750 From: Byron Connell Date: 4/17/2015
Subject: Re: Hall costumes are becoming the Competition costumes

 

I’d like to use a few electrons to look at how we got here.  Kevin and Andy really are the historians of costuming, however, and I hope they’ll chime in.

 

In the beginning there were hall costumes.  There were no competition costumes because there were no competitions.  In 1939, Forry Ackerman and Morojo worse costumes Morojo made to the very first World Science Fiction Convention (NYCon 1).  To the best of my knowledge, no one else did so.  Over time, as more fen began to wear them (e.g., E.E. “Doc” Smith, who liked to dress as his Lensman character, Kimball Kinnison), concoms began to organize events at which they could show them off.  These were very much masquerade parties, not stage shows.  As time went on, opportunities were given for persons in costume to step up to a microphone and talk about their costume.
The popularity of costume-wearing at SF cons became so great that, by the time the masquerade party had morphed into a stage show, entries frequently exceed 100 in number and the “Masquerade” could run for hours.  To reduce the size of masquerades, MDs began to use a rule that no costume seen in the hall before the masquerade could be entered.  This actually was very effective in cutting the number of masquerade entries down to a reasonable size (e.g., 50).  The first version of the ICG’s masquerade guidelines included the suggestion that such a commonly found rule be included.  That version was adopted by ballots counted at the 1992 ICG annual meeting (at CC 10).  It worked.
Costume-Con is a child of SF conventions.  Its structure is very similar.  Like SF cons, we have programming, social events, a dealers’ room, and competitions.  The costume exhibit essentially is a replacement for the SF con art show.  Similar to worldcons, we bid years in advance for the right to hold a CC and the current members vote on the bid(s).  While we don’t have the equivalent of the Hugo awards, the multiple competitions in a sense fill that niche.  We give tacit recognition to local costuming clubs, especially ICG chapters, much as local SF clubs participate in the worldcon (especially if they hold their own local SF conventions).  We’ve even had a Guest of Honor on occasion (e.g., CC 33).
Since the time we included a “no hall costumes in the masquerade” guideline in the ICG Guidelines in 1992, the wearing of hall costumes declined in popularity at SF cons, though not so much at CCs.  Masquerades also had gotten smaller.  That, I believe, was the principal reason that the current ICG Fairness Guidelines dropped that provision when they were adopted in 2006. It was no longer needed.  It had become common for masquerades at local and regional sf cons, and even at worldcons, to number fewer than 25.  In 2009, for example, the Anticipation masquerade (Montreal) had 30 entries; in 2011, the Chicon 7 masquerade had 27.  Costume-Cons followed a similar trend to smaller masquerades.  The CC 11 SFF masquerade had 43 entries.  The CC 29 SFF masquerade had 32; the CC 31 SFF masquerade had 31.
At CC 32, the SFF masquerade had 79 entries, 2 1/2 times the number the year before.  This was not just because of cosplayers attracted to the first CC in Ontario since CC 13, since even the Historical, which is lucky to have 20 entries, had 31.  CC 32 also set a new record for memberships.  At this point, I have absolutely no idea how much pent up costuming energy there is for CC 33.  Ther has never been a CC in the South and few southern SF cons have masquerades, so we may get a lot of members and entries.  The same may be true for 34, in Madison Wisconsin, although there have been mid-western CCs.  It may not be true for 35 in Mississauga, only three years after 32 in Toronto.
So, should you once again exclude hall costumes from the masquerade?  If you want to, go ahead; the MD’s word is law.  If you believe a CC (or any other con with a masquerade) is likely to have a very large number of members both desiring to show hall costumes and to enter the masquerade, you may want to do so in order to reduce the number of entries.  It worked in the past; it may do so again.  You have other options, however, such as restricting the availability of some awards.
“Are the days of saving one’s competition costume for the stage fading?”  Those days are relatively recent — only about 20 years old.  They don’t represent the long-term trend.  Whether that’s good or bad is up to you.  As one experienced performance judge, I’m not much concerned about the “wow” factor being reduced by having seen the costume in the halls.  I generally don’t remember that I’ve seen the costume in the halls and, anyway, I’m also looking at it under optimum lighting and as presented to the audience with the intended soundtrack.  Those factors all are missing in the halls.  We may want to ask other judges for their views on this point.
Byron the Boring
On Apr 16, 2015, at 10:03 PM, ‘Nora & Bruce Mai’ casamai@sbcglobal.net [runacc] <runacc@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

 

 

This oughtta stir some debate:   🙂

New subject:

More of our CC memberships are being filled with the ranks of costumers coming from the cosplay community.   At conventions that cater to that demographic, the emphasis is more about wearing their “wow” costumes in the halls for maximum effect.     Often, the costume contests are seemingly more about getting all their fans in one room to cheer them on, rather than a “masquerade”.   This environment was pretty much the case in Toronto.   Don’t get me wrong – it was great having all those new people.   And I applauded efforts to try to impress our “con culture upon all those new folks “.

I recognize that we must reach out to these costumers for the sake of getting new blood, but is there a risk of making too much of an accommodation?   I remember one person on Cosplay.com (a forum that, at least USED to be, a place CC concoms should be paying attention to) said “I spent a lot of time on my one costume and I want to wear it as much as I can”.   So, they wore it pretty much everywhere.   They were not the only ones.   Now, in some ways, I can’t blame them for thinking that way.   But, stay with me here.

Any “wow” factor has been lost by the time they get on stage.   Chances are, the judges will have seen them at some point, beforehand.   This makes the costume less “fresh”.   It’s also not as much fun for the judges because they’ve seen it already – part of the fun for them is the surprise factor.

I suspect this year’s CC will feel more “old school”, but I wonder what will happen at CC34 and subsequently, at 35?

Are the days of saving one’s competition costume for the stage fading?

Should there be more of an effort to encourage people not to wear their competition costume in the halls before the masquerade?

In my opinion, you have a better masquerade without a “preview”.

Discuss!

 

 

 

 

Group: runacc Message: 2751 From: Byron Connell Date: 4/17/2015
Subject: Re: Access to this list – bid groups

 

Maybe our culture needs to take steps to encompass theirs?

 

Byron

 

 

On Apr 17, 2015, at 8:35 PM, ‘Nora & Bruce Mai’ casamai@sbcglobal.net [runacc] <runacc@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

 

True enough, but to really get the manpower, you’re frequently drawing from whole chapters.   Of course, that’s not been the trend more recently.   Yet, other groups need to make sure they make an effort to become part of and understand our community/culture.  Otherwise, we run into the problem of concoms who think running a CC is interchangeable with any other con they’ve staffed.   No – no, it’s not.

 

You might recall we had a bid from Eau Claire a few years back.   (Practically) no one knew who they were and they did not win the bid, not surprisingly.

 

 

Bruce

 

From: runacc@yahoogroups.com [mailto:runacc@yahoogroups.com] 
Sent: Friday, April 17, 2015 5:58 PM
To: runacc@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [runacc] Access to this list – “term limits”



As I read the ConStitution,it does not limit bids to those from ICG chapters.  If we want to broaden participation, perhaps we should encourage other costuming groups to bid to host Costume-Con.

Byron

On Apr 16, 2015, at 9:39 PM, ‘Nora & Bruce Mai’ casamai@sbcglobal.net [runacc] <runacc@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

 

Getting new chapters to throw a CC helps.   We were needling certain MNSOC members at Teslacon last year, and they seemed to be at least mulling over the idea of a future bid.   At least, with more regions involved, it helps get a wider rotation of the “oldsters” who may feel obligated to step in if no bid arises.

 

Bruce

 

From: runacc@yahoogroups.com [mailto:runacc@yahoogroups.com] 
Sent: Friday, April 10, 2015 8:25 AM
To: List, Run a CC
Subject: Re: [runacc] Access to this list.




Byron has a point. We tend to reuse volunteers for our concoms, even if the chairs change. Theoretically, we all serve once, but there are folks who’ve served multiple times, and many of these people just swap jobs.

We haven’t had whole committees on this list, just chairs and treasurers (I think). We could theoretically broaden the invitation to more concom members, but there’s that same signal to noise ratio issue to deal with.

I know (I think) that Byron was being facetious, but I think term limits happen due to attrition and distraction. Just saying. 8)

-b

On Thu, Apr 9, 2015 at 7:33 PM, Byron Connell byronpconnell@gmail.com [runacc] <runacc@yahoogroups.com> wrote:



Unfortunately, we’re not getting very much in the way of new blood since we tend to keep volunteering to serve on concoms.  I’m certainly guilty, as are others I could name.  Maybe we need term limits for SMOCs?

Byron

 

Betsy Marks Delaney

http://www.hawkeswood.com/




 



 

 

 

 

Group: runacc Message: 2752 From: ECM Date: 4/17/2015
Subject: Re: Hall costumes are becoming the Competition costumes

 

True.  Sorry.  ~.~

E


 

 

Somehow I think this response was intended for Stacie. 8)

-B

 

 

On Fri, Apr 17, 2015 at 2:03 PM, ECM ecmami@hotmail.com [runacc] <runacc@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

 

Betsy, I agree wholeheartedly!  And I agree that you must continue to repeat yourself on their websites.

However, I’m a little sneaky – as a person “my age” is entitled to be.  I would be very generous with hall costume awards.  VERY generous.  Then put in the rule that costumes that have won hall costume awards will be in the masquerade as “exhibition only.  Not in competition.”  It won’t shorten the parade any, but might have some impact on the costumers, and will surely help the judges.

Elaine Mami
who is urging everyone to vote for CC36 in San Diego!


 

 

Excellent topic.

I have always maintained, and even said so multiple times on cosplay.com (typing until my fingers cramped, so to speak), that people will have this viewpoint UNTIL someone shows them a different way of doing things. Whenever anyone has asked, and been open to all advice, I always say “just try it once, and you might realize you like the way it feels when you get that surprise factor in!” A lot of people default to what everyone else is doing, and don’t really think about it one way or the other, or if asked why they don’t save the surprise for the stage, parrot what everyone else is saying (“I want to wear it as much as I can”).

As the director for SF&F for 34, I want SO BADLY to put in a rule that you can’t wear your competition costume in the hall prior to Saturday. I want to. I haven’t yet because I don’t know what our members will want. What I’m unsure about is whether it’s enough to simply encourage people to save the surprise for the stage, to be genial and optimistic and phrase it was “well we’re really like to see…but in the end it’s your choice,” or if the only way to get people into the habit is to make it an explicit rule.

Because really, it is a habit. It’s something that, once you give it a try, you realize is actually a really good idea. Especially once your builds start getting so big that wearing it in the hall becomes almost impossible, and while some people learn from their mistakes, not all do. Some people will still wear their heavy, hot armor or their 10-foot-wide wings or their 20-foot long trains in the hall due to habit and inertia, rather than wising up and not getting their costumes dirty, damaged, or start to hate the mere thought of wearing it another five minutes.

CC32 was a good example of exactly why it’s a good idea to save your competition piece for the competition. The masquerade was way over-booked. It went on way too long. But what really made it a chore to sit through was the fact that we had seen 80% of these costumes in the halls all day – if not for two days! And when they came to stage, they didn’t bring us anything new to see – they didn’t do more than a circle-walk-on. We rolled our eyes at the glut of Frozen costumes, but I will at least give the genderswap guy kudos for putting on an actual performance. Sure, I had already been touching the beading on his costume a few hours before, so seeing the outfit was boring, but he took it up a notch. If you’re going to wear the costume all day and only walk across the stage? It’s pointless to even enter.

One of the bad habits the younger generation is picking up is the idea that if you’re wearing a costume, no matter how simple, you should enter it in competition. On the one hand, we do like to encourage novices to take a brave step onto stage, but on the other hand, when you have 50 slots for your masquerade and 40 of them are taken up by novices who are entering solo with a character they can’t even think up a performance for, merely because they have a costume, it weighs down the quality of the masquerade. It’s a catch-22 – you don’t want to discourage novices, but at the same time, a director has to consider the quality of the show and the value for the audience. If you’re going to get a hundred feedback forms post-con and most of them tell you the masquerade sucked because all the entries were boring and lame…well, as a director, you can’t improve the show with that kind of feedback. You’re at the mercy of who enters with what. So it really falls to the community as a whole to develop different habits, so that you can be both encouraging AND put on a great show.

What bugs me most is that wearing competition costumes in the hall actually does prejudice or fatigue the judges, and people don’t even think about this. They’re more focused on their own gratification rather than the whole concept of why the contest exists and what they’re doing in it. They don’t realize that the judges are not nuns sequestered away for the weekend, they’re congoers too and they’re in the halls enjoying themselves while subconsciously evaluating costumes. So by the time that same costume appears before the judging table, the judge may have already made up their mind. Or they’re so plain tired of seeing the costume that they don’t care. It’s unfortunate, but it’s human nature, and it’s something you can’t steel your mind against. If you can’t prevent the judges from THINKING about the costumes, you can at least prevent them from SEEING the costumes by forbidding the wearing.

Maybe it also comes down to encouraging people with “yes, I know you worked hard and want to wear it a lot. Wear it AFTER the show. Wear it Sunday and Monday. Wear it at the NEXT con you’re going to, when it’s no longer in competition and you can enjoy it.” But mostly it’s about developing the habit. I don’t think the days of the surprise on stage are over, and I personally want to see this particular habit stay relevant. I just don’t know, outside of long-windedly blathering on cosplay forums/facebook to try to get it through thick heads (like I do) HOW to cultivate the habit. HOW to get people to give the surprise a try.

At least people who are working so hard on a build that it isn’t finished until the day of the competition automatically save their costume for the stage. It’s probably not a preferable method but it works. 😉

Stace

—In runacc@yahoogroups.com, <casamai@…> wrote :

 

I recognize that we must reach out to these costumers for the sake of getting new blood, but is there a risk of making too much of an accommodation?   I remember one person on Cosplay.com (a forum that, at least USED to be, a place CC concoms should be paying attention to) said “I spent a lot of time on my one costume and I want to wear it as much as I can”.   So, they wore it pretty much everywhere.   They were not the only ones.   Now, in some ways, I can’t blame them for thinking that way.   But, stay with me here.

Any “wow” factor has been lost by the time they get on stage.   Chances are, the judges will have seen them at some point, beforehand.   This makes the costume less “fresh”.   It’s also not as much fun for the judges because they’ve seen it already – part of the fun for them is the surprise factor.

Are the days of saving one’s competition costume for the stage fading?

Should there be more of an effort to encourage people not to wear their competition costume in the halls before the masquerade?
In my opinion, you have a better masquerade without a “preview”.

 

 

 


Betsy Marks Delaney

http://www.hawkeswood.com/

 

 

 

 

Group: runacc Message: 2753 From: Aurora Celeste Date: 4/17/2015
Subject: Re: Hall costumes are becoming the Competition costumes

Although I understand the sentiment behind the rule, I just can’t get behind it because I see too much area for confusion.  For example, at CC 32 there was quite a line for the Green Room and lots of people came early and stood in the hall.  It was, in my opinion, early enough that a judge may not have realized in the elevator that it was time.  There’s also the question of people wanting to wear their costume to rehearsal and getting there.  I know most of us carry or wear part of the costume, but there are some costumes and/or presentations where it may be important, but judges may not realize in the elevator at 11:00 am that they should look the other way.  Imo it’s better to get judges who can work to put that aside and judge the workmanship based on the information given and the presentation based on what was onstage.  Nigh-impossible, I agree, but we already trust our judges with not remembering other Masquerades where they saw a similar costume or not judging a costumer’s past work when considering this current contest, and I feel this is no different.

~Aurora

 

On Friday, April 17, 2015, Byron Connell byronpconnell@gmail.com [runacc] <runacc@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

 

I’d like to use a few electrons to look at how we got here.  Kevin and Andy really are the historians of costuming, however, and I hope they’ll chime in.

In the beginning there were hall costumes.  There were no competition costumes because there were no competitions.  In 1939, Forry Ackerman and Morojo worse costumes Morojo made to the very first World Science Fiction Convention (NYCon 1).  To the best of my knowledge, no one else did so.  Over time, as more fen began to wear them (e.g., E.E. “Doc” Smith, who liked to dress as his Lensman character, Kimball Kinnison), concoms began to organize events at which they could show them off.  These were very much masquerade parties, not stage shows.  As time went on, opportunities were given for persons in costume to step up to a microphone and talk about their costume.
The popularity of costume-wearing at SF cons became so great that, by the time the masquerade party had morphed into a stage show, entries frequently exceed 100 in number and the “Masquerade” could run for hours.  To reduce the size of masquerades, MDs began to use a rule that no costume seen in the hall before the masquerade could be entered.  This actually was very effective in cutting the number of masquerade entries down to a reasonable size (e.g., 50).  The first version of the ICG’s masquerade guidelines included the suggestion that such a commonly found rule be included.  That version was adopted by ballots counted at the 1992 ICG annual meeting (at CC 10).  It worked.
Costume-Con is a child of SF conventions.  Its structure is very similar.  Like SF cons, we have programming, social events, a dealers’ room, and competitions.  The costume exhibit essentially is a replacement for the SF con art show.  Similar to worldcons, we bid years in advance for the right to hold a CC and the current members vote on the bid(s).  While we don’t have the equivalent of the Hugo awards, the multiple competitions in a sense fill that niche.  We give tacit recognition to local costuming clubs, especially ICG chapters, much as local SF clubs participate in the worldcon (especially if they hold their own local SF conventions).  We’ve even had a Guest of Honor on occasion (e.g., CC 33).
Since the time we included a “no hall costumes in the masquerade” guideline in the ICG Guidelines in 1992, the wearing of hall costumes declined in popularity at SF cons, though not so much at CCs.  Masquerades also had gotten smaller.  That, I believe, was the principal reason that the current ICG Fairness Guidelines dropped that provision when they were adopted in 2006. It was no longer needed.  It had become common for masquerades at local and regional sf cons, and even at worldcons, to number fewer than 25.  In 2009, for example, the Anticipation masquerade (Montreal) had 30 entries; in 2011, the Chicon 7 masquerade had 27.  Costume-Cons followed a similar trend to smaller masquerades.  The CC 11 SFF masquerade had 43 entries.  The CC 29 SFF masquerade had 32; the CC 31 SFF masquerade had 31.
At CC 32, the SFF masquerade had 79 entries, 2 1/2 times the number the year before.  This was not just because of cosplayers attracted to the first CC in Ontario since CC 13, since even the Historical, which is lucky to have 20 entries, had 31.  CC 32 also set a new record for memberships.  At this point, I have absolutely no idea how much pent up costuming energy there is for CC 33.  Ther has never been a CC in the South and few southern SF cons have masquerades, so we may get a lot of members and entries.  The same may be true for 34, in Madison Wisconsin, although there have been mid-western CCs.  It may not be true for 35 in Mississauga, only three years after 32 in Toronto.
So, should you once again exclude hall costumes from the masquerade?  If you want to, go ahead; the MD’s word is law.  If you believe a CC (or any other con with a masquerade) is likely to have a very large number of members both desiring to show hall costumes and to enter the masquerade, you may want to do so in order to reduce the number of entries.  It worked in the past; it may do so again.  You have other options, however, such as restricting the availability of some awards.
“Are the days of saving one’s competition costume for the stage fading?”  Those days are relatively recent — only about 20 years old.  They don’t represent the long-term trend.  Whether that’s good or bad is up to you.  As one experienced performance judge, I’m not much concerned about the “wow” factor being reduced by having seen the costume in the halls.  I generally don’t remember that I’ve seen the costume in the halls and, anyway, I’m also looking at it under optimum lighting and as presented to the audience with the intended soundtrack.  Those factors all are missing in the halls.  We may want to ask other judges for their views on this point.
Byron the Boring
On Apr 16, 2015, at 10:03 PM, ‘Nora & Bruce Mai’ casamai@sbcglobal.net [runacc] <runacc@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

 

This oughtta stir some debate:   🙂

 

New subject:

 

 

More of our CC memberships are being filled with the ranks of costumers coming from the cosplay community.   At conventions that cater to that demographic, the emphasis is more about wearing their “wow” costumes in the halls for maximum effect.     Often, the costume contests are seemingly more about getting all their fans in one room to cheer them on, rather than a “masquerade”.   This environment was pretty much the case in Toronto.   Don’t get me wrong – it was great having all those new people.   And I applauded efforts to try to impress our “con culture upon all those new folks “.

 

I recognize that we must reach out to these costumers for the sake of getting new blood, but is there a risk of making too much of an accommodation?   I remember one person on Cosplay.com (a forum that, at least USED to be, a place CC concoms should be paying attention to) said “I spent a lot of time on my one costume and I want to wear it as much as I can”.   So, they wore it pretty much everywhere.   They were not the only ones.   Now, in some ways, I can’t blame them for thinking that way.   But, stay with me here.

 

Any “wow” factor has been lost by the time they get on stage.   Chances are, the judges will have seen them at some point, beforehand.   This makes the costume less “fresh”.   It’s also not as much fun for the judges because they’ve seen it already – part of the fun for them is the surprise factor.    

 

I suspect this year’s CC will feel more “old school”, but I wonder what will happen at CC34 and subsequently, at 35?

 

Are the days of saving one’s competition costume for the stage fading?

 

Should there be more of an effort to encourage people not to wear their competition costume in the halls before the masquerade?

In my opinion, you have a better masquerade without a “preview”.

 

 

 

Discuss!