Back to the original discussion which was promotion of CCs via a joint flyer
(not promoting the Folio). Granted promoting the Folio can generate some
interest in CC (provided the CC is mentioned sufficiently in the Folio
materials) but that’s not my point.

Henry: Yeah, it’s pretty bare bones but it’s designed for insertion of
various information as the sites change, it could be used repeatedly with
very little change from year to year. I also wanted to get an idea out there
quickly and didn’t really have time to research everyone’s info. Given the
astounding lack of interest in it, I’m glad I didn’t put more effort into
it.

Andy: It’s very nice that you’re including everyone’s info on your flyers
(and pretty much the same idea) but my idea was to more evenly distribute
the responsibilty and cost of a multi-flyer to all CCs.

Nora

On Jun 16, 2004, at 4:28 AM, Bruce & Nora Mai wrote:

> Andy: It’s very nice that you’re including everyone’s info on your
> flyers
> (and pretty much the same idea) but my idea was to more evenly
> distribute
> the responsibilty and cost of a multi-flyer to all CCs.

I’m not sure I get the cost issue. It cost me the same to print up my
flier with everybody’s dates and info as it does to print up an
“official” flier with everybody’s information on it.

Note: I’m not suggesting nobody use the general flier. I’m just saying
I don’t need to use the general flier.

—
andy trembley, Bitchy Design Queen – http://www.bovil.com/
San Jose, CA – ’72 R75/5 ’86 R100 (mine) – ’92 K75sa ’03 R1150R
(Kevin’s)
…remaining .sig trimmed for better message/.sig ratio

Not so much cost as coverage; if everyone is using it then you’ll get
coverage at more venues without spending more. If every committee covers a
particular area with the general flyer then everyone gets national coverage
without having to send their individual flyers to every con. I expect we’d
all send our individual flyers to most of the biggies anyway with heavier
coverage in some areas.
But this way we’d know that we’d have some general coverage just about
everywhere.

Nora

—– Original Message —–
From: “Andrew T Trembley” <attrembl@bovil.com>
To: <runacc@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, June 16, 2004 3:36 PM
Subject: Re: [runacc] The Flyer

> On Jun 16, 2004, at 4:28 AM, Bruce & Nora Mai wrote:
> > Andy: It’s very nice that you’re including everyone’s info on your
> > flyers
> > (and pretty much the same idea) but my idea was to more evenly
> > distribute
> > the responsibilty and cost of a multi-flyer to all CCs.
>
> I’m not sure I get the cost issue. It cost me the same to print up my
> flier with everybody’s dates and info as it does to print up an
> “official” flier with everybody’s information on it.
>
> Note: I’m not suggesting nobody use the general flier. I’m just saying
> I don’t need to use the general flier.
>
> —
> andy trembley, Bitchy Design Queen – http://www.bovil.com/
> San Jose, CA – ’72 R75/5 ’86 R100 (mine) – ’92 K75sa ’03 R1150R
> (Kevin’s)
> …remaining .sig trimmed for better message/.sig ratio
>
>
>
>
> View the Document: http://www.Costume-Con.org/procedure/runacc/
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>

In my opinion, paying for flyers is just spent moeny for the common goal,
which is to promote CC’s, no matter where they are and if you are going or not.
After Duckon a few weeks ago, I gave the remaining flyers I had made to the
Inkpens, because they will be hitting another con before I do. Before I took them
to Duckon, I sent them to WisCon. If I had had Nora’s UnaFlyer, I would have
taken that, too.
Henry

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I think we need to ask ourselves who we want to draw in with the
flyer–those who’ve heard about us before or those who have not.

I think the draft would appeal more towards someone who has some idea
about coming to a Costume Con and just is trying to figure out WHEN
they might make it.

I think another draft might be heavy on WHAT a Costume Con is and WHY
they should come, with a small section at the bottom listing the
dates/locations of future cons.

Frankly, I am not sure which group is larger _at the venues where
these flyers will be_. (Which likely are SF/F cons but could also be
Royal Court events, RenFairs, Belly Dance Festivals, etc.)

Dave Doering

davedoering wrote:

> I think we need to ask ourselves who we want to draw in with the
> flyer–those who’ve heard about us before or those who have not.

‘k, it’s a big download, but…
http://www.cc26.info/Posters/CC26.Fliers.pdf
examples of all sorts of poster/flier content

also, our “resume” for hotels and orgs outside our normal sphere
http://www.cc26.info/Posters/CC26.Packet.pdf

some of you have seen these before.

andy

I am sorry, but Yahoo was abusing me during this earlier discussion
and would not let me post. So I want to add a few comments.

— Ricky & Karen Dick wrote:

> We’re talking pro-run vs. fan-run conventions here, which are two

VERY

> different animals.

Exactly. The point I wanted to make was that Comic-Con at some point
made a deliberate decision to go pro. The WorldCon made one to stay
fan-run. I am asking here if the Costume-Con mark holders have made a
decision either way–to keep Costume-Con as a fan-run only event or
if the opportunity came up in the future to possibly have a pro-run
version?

I think the oft-made comparison between Costume College and Costume-
Con is relevant here (although College is an all-volunteer event).

Costume College performs extremely well for its current venue and
audience. The College staff has made a conscious decision to limit
total memberships rather than seek a larger venue. I believe Darla
will correct me if I am wrong, but moving to a larger venue, allowing
greater attendance, would also entail increasing programming, greater
hotel expense, and more support services.

Particularly, the larger venue’s programming would be the biggest
hurdle, because finding competent instructors becomes increasingly
difficult. Also, supporting those instructors and classes behind the
scenes becomes much more elaborate.

For Costume-Con, however, we face the inverse problem. The smaller
our size, the fewer people we have to run the con, attend the panels,
and, most importantly, compete. I am thinking that 200 is just about
the bare minimum we can have and not overwork everyone or have shows
with just five or six entries. And, with just 200, we cannot afford a
large scale venue for more programming, better lighting/sound for the
masquerades, or heavily promote it because we can’t afford ad space,
tables at cons, air travel, etc.

So while Costume College has an upper-limit to keep it a great event,
Costume-Con has an under-limit, a minimum, attendance to work.

For that reason, we cannot simply have discrete committees working
independent of each other to create separate and distinct Costume-
Cons and expect CCs to move onward and upward.

Dave D.

To get our definitions straight, when I say “pro run,” I mean a convention
is run as a Big Business deal and the $$$$$ generated goes into the pockets
of a handful of individuals. Examples: San Diego Comic-Con, Creation media
conventions, Chiller Theatre, and (I’m fairly sure) Dragoncon. The San
Diego Comic-Con is run under the aegis of a non-profit corporation, but I’m
sure there are some well-paid full-time staff positions involved for some
of the key players.

“Pro run” means “promoter” run, NOT “professionally” run. Even the smallest
fan-run convention can be run professionally (i.e., to a high set of
standards). Further, it has been my experience over the last 30 years that
most promoter-run conventions are about making the maximum about of income
for the promoter, NOT about providing a quality experience for the
attendees, who are usually treated like cattle.

More comments below:

At 02:51 AM 6/17/2004 +0000, you wrote:

>The point I wanted to make was that Comic-Con at some point
>made a deliberate decision to go pro. The WorldCon made one to stay
>fan-run. I am asking here if the Costume-Con mark holders have made a
>decision either way–to keep Costume-Con as a fan-run only event or
>if the opportunity came up in the future to possibly have a pro-run
>version?

Costume-Con came from fan-run roots, and I just can’t see it ever becoming
pro-run. For Costume-Con to “go pro,” it would have to be my paid full-time
job, and that just isn’t going to happen. I’m not sure what a pro-run
version would be like, but I guarantee you it would no longer resemble the
Costume-Con we have known and loved for 20+ years, and I’m not sure any of
us would like it.

And if Costume-Con “goes pro,” this list and everyone on it becomes
obsolete, as it will be the promoter (me) and a hand-picked group of
committee people calling the shots every year. That’s not what I want, and
I don’t think that’s what you want, either. In spite of some of the
problems generated by having a different committee in a different city
every year, it is the mix of different creative energies that helps keep
Costume-Con going, and trying new things while maintaining some continuity
with the old. “more spice for the stew,” as my artist friend and Clown Hall
of Famer Jim Howle used to say.

>I am thinking that 200 is just about the bare minimum we can have and not
>overwork everyone or have shows with just five or six entries.

I think you are stating the obvious.

BTW, there have been multiple (5?) Costume-Cons with under 200 attendees,
and while the competitons were small, none of them were THAT small. (We’re
back to the statistic that says that there are 100 “hardcore” atendees, and
those “hardcores” are the ones who compete.)

>And, with just 200, we cannot afford a large scale venue for more
>programming, better lighting/sound for the masquerades, or heavily promote
>it because we can’t afford ad space,
>tables at cons, air travel, etc.

Then you provide what you can afford, and make do. There were conventions
where we were happy to have a couple of spotlights and a boom box.

Good Ghod, in the 80’s, when some of the largest CC’s were run, the concom
did not expect the con to pick up the tab for airfares, etc. If we happened
to be going to another con, we took flyers along and tried to mention
Costume-Con on any costuming panels we appeared on. If we were not
attending a con, we tried to send flyers with someone who was, or to
someone local to put out at the con. We put together press packets and sent
them out to local media and national costume- and sewing-based magazines.
Most of the promotion of a CC took place through the mails and phone lines,
not by going to every other convention in person.

Also, you should NOT base your estimation of how Costume-Con should be
properly promoted upon Kevin & Andy’s heavy rotation of bid parties for
CC-26. They are promoting Costume-Con as if it were as large and had
pockets as deep as a WorldCon. It is not, and does not. Much of their party
expense is going to end up coming out of their own pockets. They do it
because (1) they have good jobs and can afford to do it, (2) they like to
throw parties, and (3) they like to SMOF. But even if their Costume-Con
draws 1,000 people, it will not make back the hotel room nights, airfares,
and consumables used at those parties.

>For that reason, we cannot simply have discrete committees working
>independent of each other to create separate and distinct Costume-
>Cons and expect CCs to move onward and upward.

CC was in a strong growth pattern in the 1980’s, when the con was not only
changing committees every year, but bouncing coast to coast as well, so it
*was* “moving onward and upward” with independent committees. (In fact,
most of the committees were more independent than they are now.) Recent
growth problems with the con can be attributed to other factors, some
completely beyond the control of the concoms, which have already been
endlessly discussed here.

I agree that it would be helpful to have some information in a centralized
location so each committee isn’t reinventing the wheel, and that’s why
various items are getting written and incorporated into the CC website as
time permits (like how to put together a bid, how to negotiate with a
hotel, etc., etc.). Some people have put in phenomenal amounts of work so
far, but it’s a long process, and none of us are getting paid for this, so
it’s not going to happen overnight.

If everyone would put as much effort into running and promoting their own
CC’s as they are into writing comments to this list, attendance would not
be an issue. Be aware of the Big Picture, but for the short term, we all
really need to concentrate on the individual Little Pictures.

–Karen

Ricky & Karen Dick wrote:

> Also, you should NOT base your estimation of how Costume-Con should be
> properly promoted upon Kevin & Andy’s heavy rotation of bid parties for
> CC-26. They are promoting Costume-Con as if it were as large and had
> pockets as deep as a WorldCon. It is not, and does not. Much of their party
> expense is going to end up coming out of their own pockets. They do it
> because (1) they have good jobs and can afford to do it, (2) they like to
> throw parties, and (3) they like to SMOF. But even if their Costume-Con
> draws 1,000 people, it will not make back the hotel room nights, airfares,
> and consumables used at those parties.

I’m going to half-argue with this.

I think doing bid/promo parties at key conventions is valuable. I think
Costume-Con, WorldCon and (in our region) WesterCon are the key
traveling conventions. WorldCon and WesterCon are, for us, a way to draw
the attentions of the nomadic fan, and build the core membership.

I think costume-heavy local conventions (and we’ve got an embarrasment
of wealth here, with BayCon, Further Confusion, SiliCon, Fanime,
Yaoi-Con and others) are also worth doing parties at, probably more so
than traveling cons at least for short-term and/or individual gains. By
having a presence at BayCon we draw the attentions of local fans who
might consider driving 4-5 hours to go to a CC but don’t travel any further.

As for the rest of the cons, we’re really doing this sort of thing
because we like to throw parties, and there are so many good conventions
throughout California. We’re going to the cons anyway, so we might as
well. It’s an excuse to pay for a nicer suite. All of our party expenses
come out of our pockets. Our bid lets us at least turn it into a tax
write-off.

And, wildly enough, every time we get a person or two who wouldn’t pick
up a CC flyer asking what this is all about and becoming interested.

andy

At 10:33 AM 6/25/2004 -0700, you wrote:

>I’m going to half-argue with this.

Thanks for responding, and thanks for only half-arguing. I really
appreciate what you and Kevin are doing to promote CC, but you have to
admit it’s a hard act for others to follow.

You are fortunate that you have a plethora of conventions within easy
travel distance to you. This may not be the case for folks throwing
Costume-Con bids in other parts of the country. And very few of us can
afford to follow Costume-Con through its annual rotations, let alone
WesterCon and WorldCon.

I think if I were working on a more limited budget than you have, I might
do promo parties also, but closer in to the actual convention once the bid
had been won. JMHO.

–Karen

Ricky & Karen Dick wrote:

> I think if I were working on a more limited budget than you have, I might
> do promo parties also, but closer in to the actual convention once the bid
> had been won. JMHO.

That I won’t argue with. Heavy regional promotion in the last year (or
even two) before the con is a really big deal. I don’t think our
promotion is going to get us that many votes. I could be wrong, though 😉

I’m going to pick on Charles and Dave a bit.

Quite a few California con nomads go to more “inland” western
conventions than we do. Over the last 6 months at conventions I’ve heard
“There’s a Costume-Con in Utah? Why haven’t we seen them promoting?” or
“I saw Dave/Charles/whomever at a con last month, and they weren’t doing
anything to promote CC.”

Now, I know some of this (not making it to conventions) was purely life
getting in the way. Not promoting at a convention you’re at (or even
being perceived as not promoting at a convention you’re at) is a
problem, though.

Face time is important in that last year. Face time is really important
that last year if it hasn’t been happening much before. Hell, we
volunteered to run LACon’s masquerade (they got someone local and
competent who has been building bridges and putting out political fires
the last few years) to get mondo local and international face time for
our run-up. We’ll probably still volunteer for prominent positions in
the LACon Masquerade (and encourage our committee members to do the
same) to get the exposure.

anyway, that’s enough rant for the moment.

andy

>Andy wrote: “I’m going to pick on Charles and Dave a bit… Not promoting
>at a convention you’re at (or even
>being perceived as not promoting at a convention you’re at) is a problem,
>though.”

I won’t argue the point to say that CC23 could do more to promote itself. I
think every con could do more. Charles and I are also perfectly willing to
admit to our limitations when it comes to face time. It’s no excuse, but
both of us lost our jobs two years ago and still have not found comparable
full-time employment. So rather than our expected canvassing of WorldCons,
Westercons, etc., we have been staying closer to home.

However, to be fair, neither of us have been to any cons other than to
CostumeCon. So if someone recalls seeing “Dave” or “Charles” elsewhere not
promoting CC23, I’d like to know about it. (And Kenneth Branagh doesn’t
count for Dave.)

I am grateful to the many people who have stepped up to the plate to
promote us at various cons throughout the country. I think it has helped to
have local people there promote CC.

Dave Doering
CC23: Utah
www.cc23.org

>Ricky & Karen Dick wrote:
> > I think if I were working on a more limited budget than you have, I might
> > do promo parties also, but closer in to the actual convention once the bid
> > had been won. JMHO.
>
>That I won’t argue with. Heavy regional promotion in the last year (or
>even two) before the con is a really big deal. I don’t think our
>promotion is going to get us that many votes. I could be wrong, though 😉
>
>I’m going to pick on Charles and Dave a bit.
>
>Quite a few California con nomads go to more “inland” western
>conventions than we do. Over the last 6 months at conventions I’ve heard
>”There’s a Costume-Con in Utah? Why haven’t we seen them promoting?” or
>”I saw Dave/Charles/whomever at a con last month, and they weren’t doing
>anything to promote CC.”
>
>Now, I know some of this (not making it to conventions) was purely life
>getting in the way. Not promoting at a convention you’re at (or even
>being perceived as not promoting at a convention you’re at) is a
>problem, though.
>
>Face time is important in that last year. Face time is really important
>that last year if it hasn’t been happening much before. Hell, we
>volunteered to run LACon’s masquerade (they got someone local and
>competent who has been building bridges and putting out political fires
>the last few years) to get mondo local and international face time for
>our run-up. We’ll probably still volunteer for prominent positions in
>the LACon Masquerade (and encourage our committee members to do the
>same) to get the exposure.
>
>anyway, that’s enough rant for the moment.
>
>andy
>
>
>View the Document:
><http://www.Costume-Con.org/procedure/runacc/>http://www.Costume-Con.org/procedure/runacc/
>
>
>
>Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
>ADVERTISEMENT
>
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

>Karen wrote: “”Pro run” means “promoter” run, NOT “professionally” run.”

I agree. After spending some time thinking through your post, I also
conclude that the current volunteer/rotation system is in fact the most
realistic way to run CC. I also agree that even with a volunteer staff, the
CC can still be run professionally.

It isn’t that I was looking for a way to make CC a “pro run” (in either
sense), rather, that we congenially accept the limitations we impose on
ourselves for having an all-volunteer rotation system.

I would like to see CC hit 450-500 attendees each year, however, if for no
other reason than for the variety of different talents/interests we would
see. To get there takes intelligent action with less re-inventing the
wheel, which is why I ask questions here. Also, lots of passion, which, if
the ICG lists are any indication, we are chock full of.

Dave D.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hello!
I know that the SLCG/CC25 will be having a party at Archon, and CC24 most
likely. At this point, I am planning on having a combo party for CC23 and the
CC26? bid Friday night.
Does any other bids want in on my party?
Henry

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

At 04:10 PM 6/25/2004 -0600, you wrote:

>I would like to see CC hit 450-500 attendees each year.

Absolutely! So would I. We are definitely in agreement there. Hopefully,
the con is now in a rebuilding phase. And the economy is improving, right?
Mr. Bush says it is, right?

>To get there takes intelligent action with less re-inventing the
>wheel, which is why I ask questions here.

You and Charles also come from a general fannish background vs. a costuming
background, so some of what the rest of us take for granted as Costume Con
history/culture may seem bewildering to you at times. There is usually some
piece of sound logic (or some historical bit of trial and error) as to why
we do some of the stuff we do.

>Also, lots of passion, which, if the ICG lists are any indication, we are
>chock full of.

*hee!* The problem is keeping the passion from erupting into flame wars at
any given time.

–Karen (off to email Fran Evans about getting her mailing list of
designers, so we can solicit them directly for the CC-23 Design Contest)

In a message dated 6/25/2004 6:50:23 PM Central Daylight Time,
castleb@pulsenet.com writes:

> The problem is keeping the passion from erupting into flame wars at
> any given time.

I have to say that, for the most part, Costuming Fandom has managed to keep
most of the Politics out of our field. The WorldCon field is overgrown with
Politics, which is why I rather play in with the rest of you. You share your
toys!
Henry

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Oh, and one last word on “promoter-run” conventions.

My typical use of the word “promoter” is as an adjective attached to the
noun “scum.”

This is a real hot spot for me right now, as my livelihood is currently
being severely impacted by the promoter scum (TransWorld Corp.) that runs
the annual Halloween, Costume, Party, and GIft trade show in Chicago. The
story is too long to go into here–just suffice it to say that if I
disliked “promoter-run” conventions before, I absolutely LOATHE them now.
And this is why I reacted as strongly as I did to the suggestion that
Costume-Con become “pro-run.”

–Karen

—– Original Message —–
From: “Ricky & Karen Dick” <castleb@pulsenet.com>
To: <runacc@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, June 25, 2004 11:03 AM
Subject: Re: [runacc] Re: Future of Costume Con (was Big conventions)

> CC was in a strong growth pattern in the 1980’s, when the con was not only
> changing committees every year, but bouncing coast to coast as well, so it
> *was* “moving onward and upward” with independent committees. (In fact,
> most of the committees were more independent than they are now.) Recent
> growth problems with the con can be attributed to other factors, some
> completely beyond the control of the concoms, which have already been
> endlessly discussed here.

Don’t forget the demographics of we Baby Boomers showing up in droves at
these events.

Regarding andy’s comments, I anticipate that CC26 will get a goodly number
of people than, say, here in the Midwest or the East Coast, but I still
seriously doubt it will be close to the size of CC8. If I’m wrong, I’ll be
pleasantly suprised (and would hope to be there for it).

Bruce

We’ve come to the conclusion that the time is not right for a common cause
flyer, because this list gets too easliy distracted by side issues that are
far more “interesting” to talk about — like pro-run cons, and ICG
discounts.

Pardon us if this seems a bit huffy in tone, but we’re tired of trying to
make our case for a combined effort. We still believe that a common flyer
can be distributed to more places throughout the nation than one that is
only distributed regionally. If Andy’s flyer is the best CC as an
organization can muster, then we guess that’s the best we can hope for, even
if it only reaches costumers on the West Coast.

We (Nora and Bruce) will create our own flyer which will include mentions of
the future CCs and bids and try to get as many Midwesterners as we can and
try to hit a few other big cons on the Coasts. We don’t want to be in the
position of prodding people to help promote their own CCs.

Henry–

You missed the Big Flame Wars in CostumAPA in the 80’s.

Most of us who were chucking fireballs at each other then are now friendly.
Go figure.

–Karen

At 07:54 PM 6/25/2004 -0400, you wrote:

>In a message dated 6/25/2004 6:50:23 PM Central Daylight Time,
>castleb@pulsenet.com writes:
> > The problem is keeping the passion from erupting into flame wars at
> > any given time.
>I have to say that, for the most part, Costuming Fandom has managed to keep
>most of the Politics out of our field. The WorldCon field is overgrown with
>Politics, which is why I rather play in with the rest of you. You share your
>toys!
> Henry
>
>
>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>
>View the Document: http://www.Costume-Con.org/procedure/runacc/
>Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>

Hi!

Speaking for CCXV, which broke 400 just by sheer force of will, I will
say that a large part of the reason why we managed to do so stemmed from
my personal shepparding of flyers to a variety of venues that had
nothing to do with attending either Costume-Con or regular SF cons.

We also hit virtually every historic event and many of the regional cons
with handfuls of flyers. I think I’d have to check my records but we
attended more than 6 major regional cons that year just before CCXV. We
had an ad in the WorldCon program, traded space for as many ads as we
could so we didn’t break the budget for advertising.

But I’m noticing that a number of the people we had at CCXV no longer
attend anything in our area – they’ve moved away or changed interests. I
suspect that if we did it again next year, we’d find it hard to make 300.

And a tip: I’ve got a bunch of costume-friendly cons listed in the links
page of Costume-Con.org. Contact them and tell them that you’ll be
willing to trade ad space with them if they’ll publish your ads for free
or deep discount.

You could also approach the events I have listed in The ICG Newsletter,
if they aren’t on the CC site.

The only way to be sure the con gets noticed is to do the promotion.
There are ways to do the promotion without hosting parties in person.

By the way, speaking of the newsletter, I have ad space available. I
suspect a deal could be worked with the editor to include ads for
upcoming CCs, if the information could get into her hands…. 9-)

There are five issues of the newsletter to be published between now and
CC23…..hint…

-b
—
—
Betsy R. Delaney
Web Mistress at large

************************************************************************
http://www.WebInvent.com/ * http://www.hawkeswood.com/
http://www.Costume-Con.org/ * http://www.sickpups.org/
http://www.SchoolWithoutWalls.org/
************************************************************************

I think the “common cause” flyer is a very good idea.

However, the CC-26 bid has put considerable time and effort into developing
and distributing their own flyers, so a “common cause” flyer is redundant
to them. Also, they are also not a seated committee yet (as the bid has not
been voted upon), so they may be wise to keep CC-26 a separate entity from
CC-23/24/25, as CC-26 is not yet fully “official” and can’t be presented as
such.

Any bids past CC-26 are still in the “very nebulous” stage (no firm dates,
venue, etc.) and therefore aren’t ready to participate.

Ideally, CC-23, -24, and -25 should do “common cause” advertising and
flyers together if it’s going to be done this year, as they are all past
the bidding/voting stage and have seated committees. But it is entirely up
to the committees of CC-23 and CC-24 if they want to do this.

Unfortunately, you have just demonstrated the difficulty of having any kind
of centralized “information flow” for Costume Con from year to year.

–Karen

At 10:19 PM 6/25/2004 -0500, you wrote:

>We’ve come to the conclusion that the time is not right for a common cause
>flyer, because this list gets too easliy distracted by side issues that are
>far more “interesting” to talk about — like pro-run cons, and ICG
>discounts.
>
>Pardon us if this seems a bit huffy in tone, but we’re tired of trying to
>make our case for a combined effort. We still believe that a common flyer
>can be distributed to more places throughout the nation than one that is
>only distributed regionally. If Andy’s flyer is the best CC as an
>organization can muster, then we guess that’s the best we can hope for, even
>if it only reaches costumers on the West Coast.
>
>We (Nora and Bruce) will create our own flyer which will include mentions of
>the future CCs and bids and try to get as many Midwesterners as we can and
>try to hit a few other big cons on the Coasts. We don’t want to be in the
>position of prodding people to help promote their own CCs.
>
>
>
>
>
>View the Document: http://www.Costume-Con.org/procedure/runacc/
>Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>

At 11:47 PM 6/25/2004 -0400, you wrote:

>But I’m noticing that a number of the people we had at CCXV no longer
>attend anything in our area – they’ve moved away or changed interests. I
>suspect that if we did it again next year, we’d find it hard to make 300.

I think the con attendance could be pushed higher than that if Costume-Con
actively courted the anime crowd. If even a small percentage of them
attended, it could really boost CC’s numbers.
This is also true of other geographic areas besides the Baltimore/DC corridor.

The problem with CC is that we need new blood, and the S/F community is not
the “feeder” system that it used to be. So we need to get the word out to
LARPers, anime fans, media cons, art-to-wear ladies, quilters, dollmakers,
drag queens, historical dance groups, bead groups, you name it. Kevin and
Andy are already trying to do this sort of outreach for CC-26. I’ll admit
I’m scared about what an infusion of so many different groups is going to
do to the overall “flavor” of the con, but it’s obvious that the con is not
going to survive if it only has S/F costumers and a smattering of
historical costumers to carry it.

“More spice for the stew,” right…?

>The only way to be sure the con gets noticed is to do the promotion.
>There are ways to do the promotion without hosting parties in person.

Absolutely.

–Karen

Not so much bewildering, as having to re-scale certain features. Since I’ve been involved in convention-fandom, and dance-events, so many things seem familiar from event to event. Publicity, logistics, planning, bugeting, security. But the % of $ for photography, FFF, staging, out-of-state publicity comes out much higher. Another thing that caught us a bit off-guard, is new technology — even if I knew how to run last years CC, what do I do next year? Color, on-line FFF? How do I protect publication rights for an on-line FFF? DVD or VHS masquerade recording? MP3 pre-set masquerade sound-tracks? (it would be better than the last CONduit juggling trick) CD photo collection? And ASCAP license. Much of this is new to me. Also site voting, Life-Time Achivement awards, are new.

Charles

—– Original Message —–
From: Ricky & Karen Dick
To: runacc@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, June 25, 2004 5:53 PM
Subject: Re: [runacc] Future of Costume Con

At 04:10 PM 6/25/2004 -0600, you wrote:
<snip>
You and Charles also come from a general fannish background vs. a costuming
background, so some of what the rest of us take for granted as Costume Con
history/culture may seem bewildering to you at times. There is usually some
piece of sound logic (or some historical bit of trial and error) as to why
we do some of the stuff we do.

<snip>

View the Document: http://www.Costume-Con.org/procedure/runacc/

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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Yes, there have been some economic reasons for reduced travel in promotions. I fully expected Dave and I to be at hopefully different two conventions a year average. (Dave has a daughter he did not have when we first initiated the bid — I started grad school last fall.) But that does not mean that we couldn’t also arrange out-of-town assistance to help promote. But I would say that has been minimal promotion, until relatively recently (not pointing fingers).

It was a bit agonizing not to make it to Chicago, and a bit of a pinch to send Dave to Atlanta, but we knew someone had to make it to Atlanta.

I know Calgary sent down flyers for CONduit, but the four folks that made it from here, would have been there anyway (supporting our bid) — and we were pretty close (less than two flying hours — well it did cost a bit to fly). It would be hard to say how many more would have traveled out there, if they could have promoted here personally — probably not very many. Our guild certainly informed local guild members. I hope Calgary did visit Seattle, but I don’t kwow.

The costume-fan market is a narrow niche, and the collective publicity needs to be mixed with face-on connection. I’m more likely to go to an out-of-state event if: I have heard about it, and if I get a face-to-face invitation.

It seems like having a masquerade panel at local cons, showing CC videos, supporting local masquerades (which seems prevalent), and then the face-to-face (closer to the event), needs to be an appropriate mix.

We had good face-to-face contact at Hartford (CC-18), but at this far out, I don’t know yet how much that will actually result in attendees.

I do belive we need to promote nationally, for CC in general, and not just each regional CC event.

Charles

—– Original Message —–
From: David Doering
To: runacc@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, June 25, 2004 2:54 PM
Subject: [runacc] Challenges on Promotion

>Andy wrote: “I’m going to pick on Charles and Dave a bit… Not promoting
>at a convention you’re at (or even
>being perceived as not promoting at a convention you’re at) is a problem,
>though.”

I won’t argue the point to say that CC23 could do more to promote itself. I
think every con could do more. Charles and I are also perfectly willing to
admit to our limitations when it comes to face time. It’s no excuse, but
both of us lost our jobs two years ago and still have not found comparable
full-time employment. So rather than our expected canvassing of WorldCons,
Westercons, etc., we have been staying closer to home.

However, to be fair, neither of us have been to any cons other than to
CostumeCon. So if someone recalls seeing “Dave” or “Charles” elsewhere not
promoting CC23, I’d like to know about it. (And Kenneth Branagh doesn’t
count for Dave.)

I am grateful to the many people who have stepped up to the plate to
promote us at various cons throughout the country. I think it has helped to
have local people there promote CC.

Dave Doering
CC23: Utah
www.cc23.org

>
>
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Yes, we’ve discussed this for at least a year, but I would not dismiss either. For CC-23, we’ve often had other priorties, but do expect to start on some general advertising. (# x+1 priority, on a list of x) I suspect the other bids are in a similar status.

The importance of such advertising is likely to get imbedded in our agendas, and re-emerge later.

Thanks for the comment.

Charles

—– Original Message —–
From: Bruce & Nora Mai
To: runacc@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, June 25, 2004 9:19 PM
Subject: [runacc] We give up — (was Future of Costume Con and other threads)

We’ve come to the conclusion that the time is not right for a common cause
flyer, because this list gets too easliy distracted by side issues that are
far more “interesting” to talk about — like pro-run cons, and ICG
discounts.

Pardon us if this seems a bit huffy in tone, but we’re tired of trying to
make our case for a combined effort. We still believe that a common flyer
can be distributed to more places throughout the nation than one that is
only distributed regionally. If Andy’s flyer is the best CC as an
organization can muster, then we guess that’s the best we can hope for, even
if it only reaches costumers on the West Coast.

We (Nora and Bruce) will create our own flyer which will include mentions of
the future CCs and bids and try to get as many Midwesterners as we can and
try to hit a few other big cons on the Coasts. We don’t want to be in the
position of prodding people to help promote their own CCs.

View the Document: http://www.Costume-Con.org/procedure/runacc/

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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

This is a long, rambling message, but there is a point…

If it’s any help, there’s been a common conception (mis or otherwise)
that each con needs its own focus/limelight, and that the next one
coming up needs to be in the forefront of advertising. The Fashion Folio
is a prime example of this kind of thinking. I know I’ve heard people
say that it’s important for the current CC to get the materials out now,
and for the other CCs to wait until the deadline is over to start
heavily promoting, to avoid stepping on toes. I think that this
hesitation to advertise more than one CC at a time ultimately loses the
momentum built up by the previous year’s CC, especially when pulling in
local people who haven’t been to a CC in the past and who might be
willing to travel to future CCs.

In defense of the future CCs, it is Really Hard to concentrate energy on
an event that is taking place two years in advance or more.

Unfortunately, that’s exactly what needs to happen to ensure that you’re
going to get the widest field of attendees. And the sooner you get those
groups who don’t traditionally go to CC (Anime, LARP, re-enactor, etc.)
involved in the process, the better targeted your program will be
because you will know what these people are interested in learning.

I was aware of the difference between promoter-run events like the local
sewing events, which are commonly targeting quilters or art-to-wear
enthusiasts, and CCs since I was taking flyers to these events (and
re-enactments, LARPs, etc.). The biggie is the publication as early as
possible of the actual program. Simply saying that there will be
programming without indicating what that programming will be, for those
who have never been to a Costume-Con before, generally isn’t enough to
attract people who haven’t been before.

When I used to work for associations and dealt with their annual
meetings, people would request the program months in advance. Now,
granted, these associations had the dollars to be able to fix their
programs early – at least two months prior to the events with only minor
tweaking for participants – but I was fielding similar requests for info
about CCXV at least three months out.

If you know at least the highlights of the panels or demos or workshops
you plan to offer, providing this info ASAP is a Good Thing.

Ditto for the competition rules – the sooner these are set, the easier
it will be for you to use them as part of your advertising.

Interestingly, regarding SF cons as a source of incoming blood for CCs,
I was just talking with Larry Schroeder yesterday about the shrinking
of masquerades. He wanted to know if we were going to be at WorldCon
this year. The answer is, well, no. Sort of. We’re thinking of being up
at the con for the LOTR exhibit, and planning to be there during
Noreascon, if we can get tickets. But I just can’t justify paying the
membership fee they want for a WorldCon anymore. We saw a panel and a
half at Millenium Philcon, and spent pretty much the rest of the time
sitting in the convention center hallway entertaining Erin, who wasn’t
yet one and still too small to participate meaningfully in the con.
We’ll have the same issues with Katie this year, in spades, because
she’s three months behind what Erin was at MilPhil in development for
this year’s event (birthday in January versus birthday in October).
(wow, that’s an awkward sentence!)

It’s my feeling that WorldCon is pricing itself out of business – the
more it costs, the less likely it will be able to attract the younger
fen because the membership fees are huge. Dragon*Con charges below $90
for membership. Contrast that with $180 for Noreascon and it suddenly
becomes a lot easier to see why the younger crowd is heading elsewhere.
The Anime and fringe cons are even less expensive.

And those of us who could possibly afford to go have other priorities in
the way (see my comments about my family above, for example). I simply
can’t justify spending the bux to go and sit in the hallway. I can
generally do that for free. Yeah, I miss the masquerade, but considering
that I missed the end of the Historical at CC, I can’t be sure how much
I’d see anyway this year. Frankly, if I can’t leave the kids behind for
CC23, I’ll shell out the $$ but I don’t know how much I’m going to be
able to participate.

I guess what this means is that we’re going to have to work harder and
smarter to continue to pull in new blood if we’re going to up those
membership numbers. And advertising/promotion is a HUGE part of the process.

Betsy

—
—
Betsy R. Delaney
Web Mistress at large

************************************************************************
http://www.WebInvent.com/ * http://www.hawkeswood.com/
http://www.Costume-Con.org/ * http://www.sickpups.org/
http://www.SchoolWithoutWalls.org/
************************************************************************

Charles–

Some of it is new technology to me, too (on-line FFF). You just do the best
you can.

–Karen

At 07:53 PM 6/25/2004 -0600, you wrote:

>Not so much bewildering, as having to re-scale certain features. Since
>I’ve been involved in convention-fandom, and dance-events, so many things
>seem familiar from event to event. Publicity, logistics, planning,
>bugeting, security. But the % of $ for photography, FFF, staging,
>out-of-state publicity comes out much higher. Another thing that caught
>us a bit off-guard, is new technology — even if I knew how to run last
>years CC, what do I do next year? Color, on-line FFF? How do I protect
>publication rights for an on-line FFF? DVD or VHS masquerade
>recording? MP3 pre-set masquerade sound-tracks? (it would be better than
>the last CONduit juggling trick) CD photo collection? And ASCAP
>license. Much of this is new to me. Also site voting, Life-Time
>Achivement awards, are new.
>
>Charles
> —– Original Message —–
> From: Ricky & Karen Dick
> To: runacc@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Friday, June 25, 2004 5:53 PM
> Subject: Re: [runacc] Future of Costume Con
>
>
> At 04:10 PM 6/25/2004 -0600, you wrote:
> <snip>
> You and Charles also come from a general fannish background vs. a
> costuming
> background, so some of what the rest of us take for granted as Costume Con
> history/culture may seem bewildering to you at times. There is usually
> some
> piece of sound logic (or some historical bit of trial and error) as to why
> we do some of the stuff we do.
>
> <snip>
>
> View the Document: http://www.Costume-Con.org/procedure/runacc/
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
> ADVERTISEMENT
>
>
>
>
>
>——————————————————————————
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> a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:
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> b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
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> c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
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>
>
>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>
>View the Document: http://www.Costume-Con.org/procedure/runacc/
>Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>

That’s a fannish tradition — do the best you can, possibly bite off a little more than you can chew, and innovate.

Charles

—– Original Message —–
From: Ricky & Karen Dick
To: runacc@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Saturday, June 26, 2004 9:49 AM
Subject: Re: [runacc] Future of Costume Con

Charles–

Some of it is new technology to me, too (on-line FFF). You just do the best
you can.

–Karen

> >View the Document: http://www.Costume-Con.org/procedure/runacc/
>Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>

View the Document: http://www.Costume-Con.org/procedure/runacc/

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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

And if it screws up, tap dance.

–Karen

At 11:37 AM 6/26/2004 -0600, you wrote:

>That’s a fannish tradition — do the best you can, possibly bite off a
>little more than you can chew, and innovate.
>
>Charles
> —– Original Message —–
> From: Ricky & Karen Dick
> To: runacc@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Saturday, June 26, 2004 9:49 AM
> Subject: Re: [runacc] Future of Costume Con
>
>
> Charles–
>
> Some of it is new technology to me, too (on-line FFF). You just do the
> best
> you can.
>
> –Karen
>
> > >View the Document: http://www.Costume-Con.org/procedure/runacc/
> >Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
> View the Document: http://www.Costume-Con.org/procedure/runacc/
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
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>
>
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>
>
>
>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>
>View the Document: http://www.Costume-Con.org/procedure/runacc/
>Yahoo! Groups Links
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>
>
>

In a message dated 6/25/2004 10:20:53 PM Central Daylight Time,
castleb@pulsenet.com writes:

> You missed the Big Flame Wars in CostumAPA in the 80’s.

Karen,
I only go into fandom around 1984. Sorry if that makes you feel old.
Admittedly, I have been around and slow in getting to the position that I am in,
but I still feel like a newcomer. It probably comes from too many years hanging
out with old timers that told too many “No ‘kidding’, I was there” BS stories.
I do know that I have coveted the outside position and learned by watching
mistakes by people, even those that were close to me at the time.
Henry

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Bruce & Nora,
Never give up! Never surrender! I believe in your grand unified flyer
concept. I also believe in the individual flyer that also gives even more info
about a specific CC.
I, personally, would love to have a copy of your grand unified flyer.
Henry

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

At 08:04 PM 6/26/2004 -0400, you wrote:

> I only go into fandom around 1984. Sorry if that makes you feel old.

Lots of fannish folk (and costumers!) “older” in fandom than me, just not
necessarily writing on this board, LOL!

1984 was the year of LACon II, one of the largest WorldCons (and
masquerades!) ever. Lots of frayed tempers and flame wars that year, and
the publication of the infamous CostumApa 8.5.
Very difficult to be very competitve on stage and then try to find the
“off” switch the rest of the time, especially when you are young and full
of piss and vinegar.

I now live about 2 hours from one of my most bitter rivals in those days
(Sally Fink), and we socialize several times a year. I’ve also asked her to
be a judge for the CC-23 Fashion Design Contest.

Times change, eh?

>I do know that I have coveted the outside position and learned by watching
>mistakes by people, even those that were close to me at the time.

Good to learn by watching others, both the “this works” stuff and the “this
was a really bad idea” stuff. I try to keep learning new things all the
time, so I don’t fossilize.

“When you’re green, you grow. When you’re ripe, you rot.”

All of us need to stay green.

–Karen

Does CC23 have a specific logo or are you just using a generic Egyptian
look?

Nora

Thank you from both of us for finally some constructive talk about
promotion. Now, the next step is we all have to actively DO something.
We’ll have some info for you all shortly, but we want to get our ducks in a
row, first.

As for the venues discussion, I think we had this discussion partially at
CC22, but it bears expansion. Our “seasoned” members have always stressed
the necessity to hit the big conventions, like Worldcon, obviously, but as
Karen stated, our new numbers are not going to be coming from there. I
hadn’t completely considered the financial factor of younger people (and not
so young) who can’t afford a Worldcon. We need to concentrate more on the
smaller or newer media cons, like the anime crowd, the furries and the
regional general SF events like our Archon that are cheaper to go to.
Frankly, the way things are going, Worldcon will eventually become
irrelevant for many costumers who don’t have the time or money to make the
grander outfits that appear on that stage. That is going to take more
co-ordination than the individual con committees are used to. Hence, the
necessity for at least ACTING like a central corporation, even though we
will not be. If it appears we are represented everywhere, that can only
help.

Betsy had a number of very good points about the smaller, niche groups that
most of us have no experience with at all. We need to come up with a plan
to reach those folks. Again, watch this space.

Thanks for the support, Henry. 🙂

Bruce

On Jun 25, 2004, at 9:29 PM, Ricky & Karen Dick wrote:

> However, the CC-26 bid has put considerable time and effort into
> developing
> and distributing their own flyers, so a “common cause” flyer is
> redundant
> to them. Also, they are also not a seated committee yet (as the bid
> has not
> been voted upon), so they may be wise to keep CC-26 a separate entity
> from
> CC-23/24/25, as CC-26 is not yet fully “official” and can’t be
> presented as
> such.

I hadn’t thought quite in those terms, but you’re exactly right.

—
andy trembley, Bitchy Design Queen – http://www.bovil.com/
San Jose, CA – ’72 R75/5 ’86 R100 (mine) – ’92 K75sa ’03 R1150R
(Kevin’s)
…remaining .sig trimmed for better message/.sig ratio

On Jun 26, 2004, at 3:51 AM, Betsy Delaney wrote:

> If it’s any help, there’s been a common conception (mis or otherwise)
> that each con needs its own focus/limelight, and that the next one
> coming up needs to be in the forefront of advertising. The Fashion
> Folio
> is a prime example of this kind of thinking. I know I’ve heard people
> say that it’s important for the current CC to get the materials out
> now,
> and for the other CCs to wait until the deadline is over to start
> heavily promoting, to avoid stepping on toes. I think that this
> hesitation to advertise more than one CC at a time ultimately loses the
> momentum built up by the previous year’s CC, especially when pulling in
> local people who haven’t been to a CC in the past and who might be
> willing to travel to future CCs.

I’m going to split the difference with you on the question of promoting
the folio. I think that the folio should be promoting two years out,
which means overlapping with a previous folio. The only cut-point I
think that needs to be in place is that entries aren’t accepted until
the previous folio closes registration.

I’m also going to argue violently against promoting only the next CC.
When folks hear our bid is for ’08, the next thing they want to hear
(if they are at all interested) is where CC will be next year (et al).
I don’t know if we’ll successfully build any business for Utah, but
we’re at least building buzz for them.

—
andy trembley, Bitchy Design Queen – http://www.bovil.com/
San Jose, CA – ’72 R75/5 ’86 R100 (mine) – ’92 K75sa ’03 R1150R
(Kevin’s)
“It’s not pink, it’s peach-colored. Pink is tacky.”
–Manfred Pfirsich Marie Rommel

read the FAQ… Ridicule: http://www.idiots-r-us.org/
read the FAQ… IBMWR: http://www.ibmwr.org/faq-files/
read the FAQ… AirList: http://www.airheads.org/faq.html
read the FAQ… Hoaxes & Urban Legends: http://urbanlegends.about.com/

At 01:02 PM 6/28/2004 -0700, you wrote:

>I think that the folio should be promoting two years out,
>which means overlapping with a previous folio. The only cut-point I
>think that needs to be in place is that entries aren’t accepted until
>the previous folio closes registration.

Works for me. I think you said in an earlier discussion that the Folio
should always be open for entries–when the deadline hits for one CC, then
entries should be directed to the next one.

>I’m also going to argue violently against promoting only the next CC.

I agree–like WorldCon and other rotatings cons, CC needs to be promoted as
far out as possible so people can start making plans, saving vacation time,
and saving travel $$$ if they need to go some distance to get there. In the
80’s, people were always amazed at work when I knew what dates I needed off
(for WorldCon, WesterCon, and Costume-Con) 2-3 years in advance.

Haunters just started their own rotating convention (HauntCon) this year.
The idea is to be in a different city each year to allow members to visit
local haunts that are in permanent facilities.
It will be interesting to see what kind of membership they draw each year.
(The first one drew 500; the promoter would like the con to draw
2,000-3,000.) Like Costume-Con, there is a certain group that will follow
the con around the country, but it is not that large. The first one was in
Charlotte, NC, and they even did TV advertising to try to reach the home
haunter and horror movie fan crowd, but I don’t think it was very effective.

>When folks hear our bid is for ’08, the next thing they want to hear
>(if they are at all interested) is where CC will be next year (et al).
>I don’t know if we’ll successfully build any business for Utah, but
>we’re at least building buzz for them.

Hey, Ricky just met someone at an Indiana haunt convention last weekend who
lives in the Ogden area, had never heard of Costume-Con, and is now jazzed
that there is an event like that coming to their home town, LOL!

–Karen

On Jun 25, 2004, at 8:19 PM, Bruce & Nora Mai wrote:

> Pardon us if this seems a bit huffy in tone, but we’re tired of trying
> to
> make our case for a combined effort. We still believe that a common
> flyer
> can be distributed to more places throughout the nation than one that
> is
> only distributed regionally. If Andy’s flyer is the best CC as an
> organization can muster, then we guess that’s the best we can hope
> for, even
> if it only reaches costumers on the West Coast.
>
> We (Nora and Bruce) will create our own flyer which will include
> mentions of
> the future CCs and bids and try to get as many Midwesterners as we can
> and
> try to hit a few other big cons on the Coasts. We don’t want to be in
> the
> position of prodding people to help promote their own CCs.

I think many of us are pushing, and there are solutions.

I have encouraged people in this group to enter the conventions they’re
going to be at in the calendar, and set reminders to be mailed out.
Why? So we can make use of the group and mail flyers out to those
folks. Our WesterCon reminder went out two weeks ago. I’d take your
fliers to WesterCon, but we’re leaving on Thursday morning, so it’s a
bit late to mail packets. Still, if anybody can get me flyer files, I
can print some to take along.

We have developed a large bid/marketing committee, with members around
the country. We have our own calendar reminders, and our folks
regularly email us asking to restock on fliers and award ribbons for
their convention seasons. I know our fliers and awards are seen at
local and regional cons around the country.

Oh, and of course, it’s in the interest of any bid to promote the CC
that their vote takes place at. More memberships means more potential
votes which means more potential supporting members and more seed
money.

—
andy trembley, Bitchy Design Queen
http://www.bovil.com/
“It’s not pink; it’s peach-colored. Pink is tacky.” –Manfred Pfirsich
Marie Rommel

>Nora asked: “Does CC23 have a specific logo or are you just using a
>generic Egyptian look?”

We are working on a logo reflecting costuming, the Egyptian Theater, Utah’s
Delicate Arch. and a Stargate.

Dave Doering

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

ages ago, on Apr 27, 2004, at 4:29 AM, Bruce & Nora Mai wrote:

> What about St. Louis?

I was talking with Empress Helen Twelvetrees and Emperor Tim of Las
Vegas last week at Reno Coronation.

Word from them is a Baronial Court is being formed in St. Louis. If
you’ve got folks who can watch the local gay newsrag for announcements,
keep an eye out for “Baronial Adornment,” the event where the first
Baron and Baroness of St. Louis will be elected and announced. It will
probably be a pretty major regional event.

And just a reminder for Ogden and Des Moines:

http://www.impcourt.org/icis/chapters/desmoines.html
http://www.imperialcourtofia.org/Coronation%20XI.htm
Iowa coronation is September 25, 2004, and there’s a tiny chance we
might be there. Now they’ve got a theme… “Vampires, Witches and
Warlocks: A Nocturnal Journey into Magic, Voodoo and Beyond.” The
fancier and gothier the better.

http://www.impcourt.org/icis/chapters/ogden.html
Ogden’s coronation is November 19, 2004. They’ve got a crap theme: “An
Evening of Diversity, Worldwide Celebration”
Coronations take part in “acts” and they’re doing a different theme for
each act (I assume in this order)
A Journey to Cirque du Soleil
Party Down Bourbon Street
Celebrate A Chinese New Year

—
Andy Trembley, Bull-in-Drag
The Bovine Illuminati (It’s the Cows, Inc.)
http://www.bovil.com/
Moo!

Bruce and Nora:

As the instigator of the various threads that took attention away from the
flyer issue, I apologize.

I think part of the problem with uniting us behind a flyer is the struggle
we have in being relatively autonomous concoms. I for one am not sure if I
should take the bull by the horns to confirm the use of a general purpose
flyer or wait for someone else to do so.

This can change, of course. However, since we don’t have an accepted
procedure to create and store draft flyers, review that flyer content, then
approve it, it is going to take a while to get everyone on the same page.

Actually, I think we are on our way towards solving this even if it doesn’t
look like it.

Dave Doering

Little busy there. Will this be soon? “Branding” for a con is always good
and should be started early.

Nora

—– Original Message —–
From: “David Doering” <dave@techvoice.com>
> >Nora asked: “Does CC23 have a specific logo or are you just using a
> >generic Egyptian look?”
>
> We are working on a logo reflecting costuming, the Egyptian Theater,
Utah’s
> Delicate Arch. and a Stargate.
>
> Dave Doering
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>
> View the Document: http://www.Costume-Con.org/procedure/runacc/
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>

Nora asked: Will this be soon?”

I would have wanted it ten months ago. This is a case of
someone “committing to the job” and not coming through. So now it’s
time to rush on Plan B.

Dave D.

Andy raised an interesting point about how to describe our style of costume
activity. While Costume-Con welcomes the professional costumer, it is
primarily focused on those of us who do it for the love of costumes. We’ve
referred to this as being an “avocational” (vs. professional) costumer on
the CC23 website.

However, is this clear?

When we thought about this, here were our notes:

Amateur costumer–Doesn’t really convey the level of expertise of many
costumers. Often used to contrast a high-quality production vs. a less
careful one.
Hobbyist–Sounds like a dilettante, again not quite reflecting the efforts
seen in anime, furry, or historical costumes.
Recreational costumer–Conveys a less serious tone. Might be confusing with
“recreation” vs. “re-creation”
Leisure costumer–Discounts the enormous amount of work put into a good costume
Avocational–Might suggest pretentiousness. (Andy says it is “a touch too
clever”)

We opted for the latter term because it carried less baggage than the others.

Ideas?

Dave Doering
CC23

I don’t think we should even try to reduce the kind of people
Costume-Con attracts to one label – it makes our appeal far too focused.
I’d approach the description paragraphically, giving a short list of the
types of people who have attended in the past.

Dave, do Pioneer Days attract as many Rendezvous, western and Native
American exhibitors as they used to? We made it a point each year we
were out at Garden City to drive into Logan for the events. That might
be a treasure trove for attracting new people.

I especially recall a historic fashion show held several years running.

Granted, it’s been well over a decade (closer to two) since I was out
there during summer, but still….

-b

David Doering wrote:

> Andy raised an interesting point about how to describe our style of costume
> activity. While Costume-Con welcomes the professional costumer, it is
> primarily focused on those of us who do it for the love of costumes. We’ve
> referred to this as being an “avocational” (vs. professional) costumer on
> the CC23 website.
>
> However, is this clear?
>
> When we thought about this, here were our notes:
>
> Amateur costumer–Doesn’t really convey the level of expertise of many
> costumers. Often used to contrast a high-quality production vs. a less
> careful one.
> Hobbyist–Sounds like a dilettante, again not quite reflecting the efforts
> seen in anime, furry, or historical costumes.
> Recreational costumer–Conveys a less serious tone. Might be confusing with
> “recreation” vs. “re-creation”
> Leisure costumer–Discounts the enormous amount of work put into a good
> costume
> Avocational–Might suggest pretentiousness. (Andy says it is “a touch too
> clever”)
>
> We opted for the latter term because it carried less baggage than the
> others.
>
> Ideas?
>
> Dave Doering
> CC23
>
>
>
> View the Document: http://www.Costume-Con.org/procedure/runacc/
>
>
> *Yahoo! Groups Sponsor*
> ADVERTISEMENT
> <http://us.ard.yahoo.com/SIG=1292ojo57/M=298184.5022502.6152625.3001176/D=groups/S=1707300337:HM/EXP=1088627852/A=2197946/R=0/SIG=11elgumq7/*http://www.netflix.com/Default?mqso=60183367>
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>
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—
—
Betsy R. Delaney
Web Mistress at large

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Betsy,
I think you nailed the spirit of it all in a nutshell. I can remember
having some great fabric conversations at a local Rendezvous.
We shouldn’t try to label who comes to CC’s. At most, we should offer
examples of who shows up.
Henry

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

>Henry wrote: “We shouldn’t try to label who comes to CC’s.”

Betsy wrote: “I don’t think we should even try to reduce the kind of people
Costume-Con attracts to one label…”

Don’t get me wrong. I too want every kind of costumer–Royal Court, Middle
Eastern, Furry, Anime, Historical–to come. I also don’t want to label any
group as “the chosen ones” versus the “groundlings.” Hence our “crossroads”
theme for CC23.

However, when we need to be brief, such as with the mundane press, on a
flyer, or in an ad, what would be most appropriate?

Dave D.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Not to plagiarize, but here’s what the ICG lists on their site:

“We welcome everyone with an interest in the art of costuming – from
concept to assembly to display and all stages in between – in all areas
of costume. Our members include historic reenactors, professional,
educational and community theatrical costumers, science fiction
fans,renaissance festival participants, and a vast array of others who
are interested in the making, wearing and display of costume.”

It isn’t the shortest sentence in the world, but it does convey the
important stuff. Some tweaking to allow for “original” text might be
good, and it could, in theory, be shortened, but if you’re sending out a
press release, that’s how I’d phrase it.

I recall sitting in the lobby at the Lord Baltimore talking to a
reporter just after the Fashion Show at CCXV, explaining who we were. It
took quite some time. Fortunately, I had Bridget Landry and Vicki Warren
wander by – a rocket scientist and nuclear physicist respectively. It
was a prime example of the reach we have, and the ecclectic composition
of our crowd.

I’d emphasize the crossroads theme when talking about the different
aspects of our community, to bring focus to that theme. And for a deeper
explanation, you can always point them to your web site and to mine,
which contains an excellent explanation of our history at:

http://www.Costume-Con.org/genesis.shtml

-b

David Doering wrote:

>
> >Henry wrote: “We shouldn’t try to label who comes to CC’s.”
>
> Betsy wrote: “I don’t think we should even try to reduce the kind of people
> Costume-Con attracts to one label…”
>
> Don’t get me wrong. I too want every kind of costumer–Royal Court, Middle
> Eastern, Furry, Anime, Historical–to come. I also don’t want to label any
> group as “the chosen ones” versus the “groundlings.” Hence our “crossroads”
> theme for CC23.
>
> However, when we need to be brief, such as with the mundane press, on a
> flyer, or in an ad, what would be most appropriate?
>
> Dave D.
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> View the Document: http://www.Costume-Con.org/procedure/runacc/
>
>
> *Yahoo! Groups Sponsor*
> ADVERTISEMENT
> <http://us.ard.yahoo.com/SIG=129j4fok1/M=298184.5022502.6152625.3001176/D=groups/S=1707300337:HM/EXP=1088643671/A=2164339/R=0/SIG=11e2d64in/*http://www.netflix.com/Default?mqso=60183348>
>
>
> ————————————————————————
> *Yahoo! Groups Links*
>
> * To visit your group on the web, go to:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/runacc/
>
> * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
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>
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> Service <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>.
>
>

—
—
Betsy R. Delaney
Web Mistress at large

************************************************************************
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http://www.Costume-Con.org/ * http://www.sickpups.org/
http://www.SchoolWithoutWalls.org/
************************************************************************