runacc.costume-con.org

In a message dated 5/31/2005 4:44:52 PM Central Daylight Time,
castleb@pulsenet.com writes:

> The MD chose to wait until the celebrity returned and then
> started the masquerade late. I’m not sure that was the proper course of
> action.

I have heard of that sort of thing happening, but have never experienced it.

A few years ago at WindyCon in Chicago, the Fan GoH’s were Masq judges. They
were husband and wife and that made for a major delay in the middle of the
masquerade.

Henry Osier
CostumeCon 28 in Milwaukee in 2010

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

This is a hazy memory (meaning I’d have to go and check my records and
my facts), but I am recalling that we budgeted dollars for feeding at
least the Historical judges dinner the day of the masquerade at CCXV. I
don’t think we extended the courtesy to the SF panel, mostly because
they weren’t judging all weekend.

I could be wrong. Your mileage may vary. Et cetera…

-b

>Our worst experiences here in Salt Lake have been three:

>1. The “no-show” GoH, where we quickly substituted a Guild member on the
>panel at show time

2. The GoH who remarked during the event “if I see another d***ed kid in a
Star Wars outfit…” right after the child’s performance. I am not sure if
it was something they had for dinner or just weary of seeing similar costumes.

In the latter case, there wasn’t anything to do but continue the show, then
provide reassurance to the entrant about the outburst.

3. The GoH who just _knew_ how judging should happen and pulled rank on
everyone to make the judging go their way.

All we could do here was to add their name to the informal “Never Ask
Again” List (anyone else out there have such a list? Might be interesting
to share notes.)

Often, the ConCom likes to include the GoH(s) as a way of enhancing
participation in the masquerade. (The thinking is, I believe that they are
the GoH and getting an award from them should mean much more than getting
one just from some local costumers.)

Dave Doering

On May 31, 2005, at 2:55 PM, David Doering wrote:

> All we could do here was to add their name to the informal “Never Ask
> Again” List (anyone else out there have such a list? Might be
> interesting
> to share notes.)

I think this is a quiet and private enough list that we could post
these sorts of comments here without incident.

Artists (since I tend to get ArtGOHs on panels with me)
Theresa Mather: Total joy to judge with
Jael: Total joy to judge with
Frank Wu: Good judge, not sure he was really having fun with it, but
good

Authors:
Karen Anderson: Good judge, but she hates doing it, so don’t ask her.

—
andy trembley, Bitchy Design Queen
http://www.bovil.com/
“It’s not pink; it’s peach-colored. Pink is tacky.” –Manfred Pfirsich
Marie Rommel

On May 26, 2005, at 11:46 AM, Bruno wrote:

> I had one of the young anime costumers that came out from CO, write up
> some feedback on her impressions and experiences at CC. The first
> part is directed at other cosplayers, but does provide some insight on
> how this generation thinks and feels about costuming. I’m sure that
> there are some nuggets of wisdom here, which can be used to help
> bridge the gap between the CC and Cosplay generations.

Can someone get back to her that actually, most of us are fans? We’re
just not all anime fans, and those of us who are anime fans aren’t
exclusively anime fans.

Jack Krolak made a comment when we were riding the shuttle back to the
airport, and I think this somewhat supports it. Cosplayers expect to be
mobbed in the halls by adoring fans. They expect to be stopped for
photographs in the halls every 10 feet.

—
andy trembley, Bitchy Design Queen – http://www.bovil.com/
San Jose, CA – ’72 R75/5 ’86 R100 (mine) – ’92 K75sa ’03 R1150R
(Kevin’s)
“It’s not pink, it’s peach-colored. Pink is tacky.”
–Manfred Pfirsich Marie Rommel

read the FAQ… Ridicule: http://www.idiots-r-us.org/
read the FAQ… IBMWR: http://www.ibmwr.org/faq-files/
read the FAQ… AirList: http://www.airheads.org/faq.html
read the FAQ… Hoaxes & Urban Legends: http://urbanlegends.about.com/

On May 31, 2005, at 6:08 PM, Betsy Delaney wrote:

> This is a hazy memory (meaning I’d have to go and check my records and
> my facts), but I am recalling that we budgeted dollars for feeding at
> least the Historical judges dinner the day of the masquerade at CCXV. I
> don’t think we extended the courtesy to the SF panel, mostly because
> they weren’t judging all weekend.

Feed judges. Doesn’t matter what panel. Better to spend a few bucks
than find during the masquerade you’ve got hungry judges.

Judges’ Dinner (for both F&SF panels) is a good time to have a judges’
meeting with the MD and clerks to discuss the judging instructions and
rules.

For historical, the judges and clerks are going to be together most of
the weekend, so it should be possible to discuss instructions and rules
at some other time, but they’re going to be together all weekend, and
they need to make sure they’re not judging on low blood-sugar.

—
andy trembley, Bitchy Design Queen – http://www.bovil.com/
San Jose, CA – ’72 R75/5 ’86 R100 (mine) – ’92 K75sa ’03 R1150R
(Kevin’s)
“It’s not pink, it’s peach-colored. Pink is tacky.”
–Manfred Pfirsich Marie Rommel

2nd most important safety device on my bike: the one beneath my right
hand
Most important safety device on my bike: the one inside my helmet

A friend’s teen daughter noted that too, last night (Mon) at dinner.

2 pictures were taken of her at Baycon.

She was stopped before she even got in the doors of Fanime and continued
to be stopped for pictures for all the time they were there.

JohnO

http://www.baycon.org – SF Bay area mainstream con.
http://www.fanime.com – SF Bay area anime con.

Andrew T Trembley wrote:

> Jack Krolak made a comment when we were riding the shuttle back to the
> airport, and I think this somewhat supports it. Cosplayers expect to be
> mobbed in the halls by adoring fans. They expect to be stopped for
> photographs in the halls every 10 feet.
>

Andy, Kevin,

Please P.M. me at kathnbiz@telusplanet.net re: costume-related programming and promotion of CC at Westercon.
I apologise for using this forum, but I don’t have an e-mail address for either of you.

— Katherine Bonham

—– Original Message —–
From: Andrew T Trembley
To: runacc@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, May 31, 2005 5:08 PM
Subject: Re: [runacc] Feeding judges

On May 31, 2005, at 6:08 PM, Betsy Delaney wrote:
> This is a hazy memory (meaning I’d have to go and check my records and
> my facts), but I am recalling that we budgeted dollars for feeding at
> least the Historical judges dinner the day of the masquerade at CCXV. I
> don’t think we extended the courtesy to the SF panel, mostly because
> they weren’t judging all weekend.

Feed judges. Doesn’t matter what panel. Better to spend a few bucks
than find during the masquerade you’ve got hungry judges.

Judges’ Dinner (for both F&SF panels) is a good time to have a judges’
meeting with the MD and clerks to discuss the judging instructions and
rules.

For historical, the judges and clerks are going to be together most of
the weekend, so it should be possible to discuss instructions and rules
at some other time, but they’re going to be together all weekend, and
they need to make sure they’re not judging on low blood-sugar.

—
andy trembley, Bitchy Design Queen – http://www.bovil.com/
San Jose, CA – ’72 R75/5 ’86 R100 (mine) – ’92 K75sa ’03 R1150R
(Kevin’s)
“It’s not pink, it’s peach-colored. Pink is tacky.”
–Manfred Pfirsich Marie Rommel

2nd most important safety device on my bike: the one beneath my right
hand
Most important safety device on my bike: the one inside my helmet

View the Document: http://www.Costume-Con.org/procedure/runacc/

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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Last weekend, someone who won an award at Costume-Con (international level)
competed their costume again at Balticon (regional level).

This practice was dubbed “competing down” in the 1980’s, and is generally
considered Very Poor Form. (Up is always OK, sideways is OK if you don’t do
10 conventions in the same year and bore everyone, down is a no-no.)

In defense of the contestant, I’m not even sure they knew this, although
they are a long-time costumer and should know better.

Unfortunately, it has never really been spelled out anywhere that once you
win at WorldCon or Costume-Con, you really should enter “Not In
Competition” if you want to show off your costume to the home crowd. There
has been an “honor system,” and most folks who are aware of it have adhered
to it, but nothing is formally written down.

I have suggested to Marty Gear that there be language in future Balticon
masquerade rules that
“If you’ve won a prize with your costume at Costume-Con or WorldCon, you
may show your costume in the masquerade, but must enter Not In Competition.”

This verbiage could certainly be applied to other large regionals such as
Arisia, Lunacon, Baycon, and Westercon.

Conversely, to help reinforce the idea, it would help if WorldCon and
Costume-Con had verbiage somewhere that “After you’ve won an award in our
masquerade, you should enter your costume as Not In Competition if you want
to go home and show off your work in your local or regional convention.”

When Balticon was on Easter weekend, it typically fell BEFORE Costume-Con
and costumers could “run up the ladder” with an entry over a period of
several months (competing at Balticon – Costume-Con – WorldCon). Now that
Balticon is on Memorial Day weekend, the sequence is out of order in terms
of the scale of the convention.

There’s a similar problem on the West Coast, where Costume-Con is in the
wrong order with respect to both Baycon and Westercon. So you can do
Costume-Con – Worldcon or Baycon – Westercon – Worldcon.

Let’s see what we can do to get some consistent verbiage into Costume-Con
pubs / masquerade rules on this subject.

–Karen

I’ve always referred to it as “sandbagging”.

The exception to what you are suggesting (and I agree, it is Very Poor
Form) is if you won an award in one of the “protected”
divisions and re-entered it in a more open division.

At a small convention, even that would be VPF, but at Baycon, with 2400
attendees, someone who won a (non-Best-in-Division) Novice or self-made
Young Fan award at CC and chose to enter it at BayCon in the
Open/Advanced division (Baycon only has 2 adult divisions) might not be
sandbagging at all.

A few years ago we had a WORLDCON winner entered at Baycon. She didn’t
win an award, but we did give her one of the SF art books donated by the
dealer’s room as inspirational source material (I’ll note that we had a
LOT of prize donations for that particular masquerade, so giving her one
did not prevent us from giving award winners merchandise prizes as well).

Kevin

Ricky & Karen Dick wrote:

>Last weekend, someone who won an award at Costume-Con (international level)
>competed their costume again at Balticon (regional level).
>
>This practice was dubbed “competing down” in the 1980’s, and is generally
>considered Very Poor Form. (Up is always OK, sideways is OK if you don’t do
>10 conventions in the same year and bore everyone, down is a no-no.)
>
>In defense of the contestant, I’m not even sure they knew this, although
>they are a long-time costumer and should know better
>
>

<remainder elided for brevity>

>Let’s see what we can do to get some consistent verbiage into Costume-Con
>pubs / masquerade rules on this subject.
>
>–Karen
>

I think we have an example of what Kevin is saying, at our recent CONduit.

One of the CC-23 (I’d have to look up the award details) took the same entry, and competed at “Masters” catagory (which I am also now forced to compete at — and I know she’s comparable to my level) — but she is not “Masters” at Costume-Con.

We had no problem with her competing with that costume (at that level) at CONduit. And she added to the show in the advanced divisions, since many of the rest of us were taking a break (or running the masquerade).

But we have had to help inform our locals, what level they need to compete in, both in CONduit, and in CC-23. I don’t think it is always immediately obvious to them.

Charles

—– Original Message —–
From: Kevin Roche
To: runacc@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, June 02, 2005 1:07 PM
Subject: Re: [runacc] Competing Down

I’ve always referred to it as “sandbagging”.

The exception to what you are suggesting (and I agree, it is Very Poor
Form) is if you won an award in one of the “protected”
divisions and re-entered it in a more open division.

At a small convention, even that would be VPF, but at Baycon, with 2400
attendees, someone who won a (non-Best-in-Division) Novice or self-made
Young Fan award at CC and chose to enter it at BayCon in the
Open/Advanced division (Baycon only has 2 adult divisions) might not be
sandbagging at all.

A few years ago we had a WORLDCON winner entered at Baycon. She didn’t
win an award, but we did give her one of the SF art books donated by the
dealer’s room as inspirational source material (I’ll note that we had a
LOT of prize donations for that particular masquerade, so giving her one
did not prevent us from giving award winners merchandise prizes as well).

Kevin

Ricky & Karen Dick wrote:

>Last weekend, someone who won an award at Costume-Con (international level)
>competed their costume again at Balticon (regional level).
>
>This practice was dubbed “competing down” in the 1980’s, and is generally
>considered Very Poor Form. (Up is always OK, sideways is OK if you don’t do
>10 conventions in the same year and bore everyone, down is a no-no.)
>
>In defense of the contestant, I’m not even sure they knew this, although
>they are a long-time costumer and should know better
>
>
<remainder elided for brevity>

>Let’s see what we can do to get some consistent verbiage into Costume-Con
>pubs / masquerade rules on this subject.
>
>–Karen
>

View the Document: http://www.Costume-Con.org/procedure/runacc/

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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

At 12:07 PM 6/2/2005 -0700, you wrote:

>The exception to what you are suggesting (and I agree, it is Very Poor
>Form) is if you won an award in one of the “protected”
>divisions and re-entered it in a more open division.

Balticon entrant entered in the same division as at CC-23, and it was NOT
Craftsman/Master/Open/Advanced.

–Karen

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

http://bovil.livejournal.com/

—
andy trembley, Bitchy Design Queen
http://www.bovil.com/
“It’s not pink; it’s peach-colored. Pink is tacky.” –Manfred Pfirsich
Marie Rommel

Service Mark Holder says:

“Please don’t use a skill division scheme using ‘Open’ as the name of the
unprotected division at any convention called Costume-Con.”

I’ll write it into the ConStitution if I have to. Please don’t make me.

Beginning, Intermediate, and Advanced are fine names if we can’t live with
Novice, Journeyman, and Master anymore.

But “Open” is trying so hard not to be a politically and emotionally loaded
name that I feel it is too far in the other direction–it is meaningless
and even more confusing. “I got an award in the Open Division” requires a
lot of additional explanation to friends and relatives, when “I got an
award in the Master or Advanced Division” says a lot more in one sentence
about the difficulty of the competition and the skills required to get a
prize, even to people unfamiliar with our community, or people unfamiliar
with costuming within the S/F community.

–Karen

Is this already addressed in the ICG guidelines? Is that enough, or is it
felt that it needs to be dictated to each MD at the International level by
the Con Chairs? Most of those International venues are usually run by Guild
people, who should know better. Just throwin’ that out there…

Bruce

Bruce –
I’m one of those people who “invented” the Division system and
contributed to the initial version of the ICG guidelines. For several
reasons I missed it at a masquerade that I have been running for 25
years and pretty much by the “ICG guidelines” since they were first
promulgated. I really think that it should be “carved in stone” so that
it isn’t accidentally missed.

Marty

Bruce & Nora Mai wrote:

>Is this already addressed in the ICG guidelines? Is that enough, or is it
>felt that it needs to be dictated to each MD at the International level by
>the Con Chairs? Most of those International venues are usually run by Guild
>people, who should know better. Just throwin’ that out there…
>
>Bruce
>
>
>
>
>View the Document: http://www.Costume-Con.org/procedure/runacc/
>Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

The ICG Masquerade Guidelines do include the following: “11. A costume that has won a major award at the international level [defined as Worldcons and Costume-Cons] is no longer eligible to compete at any level.” This provision was included, I believe, out of a concern for fairness to entrants at regional and local masquerades; however, masquerade directors by and large seem not to have accepted/adopted this recommended policy. That suggests that it may not be in tune with the present day in running regional masquerades, which is where the problem occurs (rather than at the international level). Is Andy’s committee retaining a similar provision in the proposed re-write of the ICG Guidelines?

Byron

—– Original Message —–
From: Ricky & Karen Dick<mailto:castleb@pulsenet.com>
To: runacc@yahoogroups.com<mailto:runacc@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, June 02, 2005 2:18 PM
Subject: Re: [runacc] Competing Down

Last weekend, someone who won an award at Costume-Con (international level)
competed their costume again at Balticon (regional level).

This practice was dubbed “competing down” in the 1980’s, and is generally
considered Very Poor Form. (Up is always OK, sideways is OK if you don’t do
10 conventions in the same year and bore everyone, down is a no-no.)

In defense of the contestant, I’m not even sure they knew this, although
they are a long-time costumer and should know better.

Unfortunately, it has never really been spelled out anywhere that once you
win at WorldCon or Costume-Con, you really should enter “Not In
Competition” if you want to show off your costume to the home crowd. There
has been an “honor system,” and most folks who are aware of it have adhered
to it, but nothing is formally written down.

I have suggested to Marty Gear that there be language in future Balticon
masquerade rules that
“If you’ve won a prize with your costume at Costume-Con or WorldCon, you
may show your costume in the masquerade, but must enter Not In Competition.”

This verbiage could certainly be applied to other large regionals such as
Arisia, Lunacon, Baycon, and Westercon.

Conversely, to help reinforce the idea, it would help if WorldCon and
Costume-Con had verbiage somewhere that “After you’ve won an award in our
masquerade, you should enter your costume as Not In Competition if you want
to go home and show off your work in your local or regional convention.”

When Balticon was on Easter weekend, it typically fell BEFORE Costume-Con
and costumers could “run up the ladder” with an entry over a period of
several months (competing at Balticon – Costume-Con – WorldCon). Now that
Balticon is on Memorial Day weekend, the sequence is out of order in terms
of the scale of the convention.

There’s a similar problem on the West Coast, where Costume-Con is in the
wrong order with respect to both Baycon and Westercon. So you can do
Costume-Con – Worldcon or Baycon – Westercon – Worldcon.

Let’s see what we can do to get some consistent verbiage into Costume-Con
pubs / masquerade rules on this subject.

–Karen

View the Document: http://www.Costume-Con.org/procedure/runacc/<http://www.costume-con.org/procedure/runacc/>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

(Andy may post this, too)

From our current working draft, in the section “General Competition
Guidelines”: (these are guidelines for the Masquerade Director)
——————————————————

Masquerade audiences (and directors and judges) rarely like to see the
same costume over and over again year after year. To prevent this from
happening, it’s not uncommon for masquerade directors to implement some
version of the “rerun rule.” It’s not just audience boredom, though,
that drives masquerade directors to do this; there are questions of
fairness associated with it.

It’s unsporting to enter a costume that has won a major award in a
larger masquerade with relatively stiff competition in the same division
at a smaller masquerade with less competition. This is often
disparagingly referred to as “sandbagging.”

As masquerade director, it’s your decision that will determine whether a
costume can be entered in your masquerade. We feel that there are
circumstances where costumes may be entered in multiple competitions:

* A costume that has not won an award in competition may be entered
in another masquerade.
* A costume that has won a major award may be entered again in a
competition of similar size at the discretion of the masquerade
director (usually if the audience, judges and slate of competitors
are significantly different).
* A costume that has won a major award in competition may be entered
again in a larger competition.

A costume that has won a competitive award (see Judging Guidelines) in
international competition should not be entered in competition at any
other masquerade.

Fairness concerns about repeat entries may be offset if the competitor
is willing to enter the costume in a more experienced skill division.

If you determine it would not be fair to enter a costume in competition
in any division, please consider allowing the entrant to present the
costume as an exhibition entry.

—————————————————————–

Byron Connell wrote:

>The ICG Masquerade Guidelines do include the following: “11. A costume that has won a major award at the international level [defined as Worldcons and Costume-Cons] is no longer eligible to compete at any level.” This provision was included, I believe, out of a concern for fairness to entrants at regional and local masquerades; however, masquerade directors by and large seem not to have accepted/adopted this recommended policy. That suggests that it may not be in tune with the present day in running regional masquerades, which is where the problem occurs (rather than at the international level). Is Andy’s committee retaining a similar provision in the proposed re-write of the ICG Guidelines?
>
>Byron
>
>
>

Answer 1: The guidelines revise does not rename divisions. Renaming
divisions won’t happen in this submission. It may never happen. Don’t
worry about it now.

Answer 2: The guidelines revise does still cover sandbagging, in a bit
more detail than the current version.

Here’s our difficulty, and it’s a general logistical issue, not a
Costume-Con or a ICG issue. Neither the ICG nor Costume-Con has
ownership over regional and local competitions.

Person competes at Costume-Con. Masquerade rules say no sandbagging.
Fine. Just about the only thing that would violate that rule would be
something that won a big award at WorldCon or a previous CC. Costume
entered wins “best novice.”

Person competes again at Balticon. Masquerade rules say nothing about
sandbagging. Entering in BaltiCon with the CC winner isn’t against the
rules, even though we believe it’s unethical. The CC rules don’t apply
at Balticon. The Balticon rules apply at Balticon.

I agree that the Balticon rules (and Westercon rules, and BayCon rules)
should include these clauses. But we’re back to the logistical issue.
In most conventions, the concom doesn’t care about much more than how
long the masquerade will take, how much space it needs and what the
tech budget is. Rules can shift greatly when a new MD comes in. Rules
do shift greatly in traveling cons, they even shift a bit each year at
CC as new MDs rewrite them. Most concoms don’t want to try to balance
between the MDs creative freedom and maintaining continuity even if
they knew what they were doing.

Many of us, particularly when asked to judge locally, do push the MDs
to add these clauses if we don’t see them. Afterwards, we point out to
the MD when we make a decision we’re not happy with because someone
does something questionable that’s not a rule violation. Or we just
make a decision on the ethics of the situation, and let the MD know
afterwards.

—
andy trembley, Bitchy Design Queen
http://www.bovil.com/
“It’s not pink; it’s peach-colored. Pink is tacky.” –Manfred Pfirsich
Marie Rommel

I agree.

Byron

—– Original Message —–
From: Ricky & Karen Dick<mailto:castleb@pulsenet.com>
To: runacc@yahoogroups.com<mailto:runacc@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, June 02, 2005 6:13 PM
Subject: Re: [runacc] “Open” Division

Service Mark Holder says:

“Please don’t use a skill division scheme using ‘Open’ as the name of the
unprotected division at any convention called Costume-Con.”

I’ll write it into the ConStitution if I have to. Please don’t make me.

Beginning, Intermediate, and Advanced are fine names if we can’t live with
Novice, Journeyman, and Master anymore.

But “Open” is trying so hard not to be a politically and emotionally loaded
name that I feel it is too far in the other direction–it is meaningless
and even more confusing. “I got an award in the Open Division” requires a
lot of additional explanation to friends and relatives, when “I got an
award in the Master or Advanced Division” says a lot more in one sentence
about the difficulty of the competition and the skills required to get a
prize, even to people unfamiliar with our community, or people unfamiliar
with costuming within the S/F community.

–Karen

View the Document: http://www.Costume-Con.org/procedure/runacc/<http://www.costume-con.org/procedure/runacc/>

——————————————————————————
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

The problem isn’t at the international-level masquerades; it’s at the regional/local level masquerades. A Worldcon or CC Masquerade Director has no power to control what a winner at that masquerade may do at some later event. If there is a need to control sandbagging — and it does appear that there is such a need — it has to be done through the rules adopted by regional and local MDs. The ICG Guidelines do explicitly address this; however, regional and local MDs appear not to have adopted that recommended practice. How do we educate them on the need to do so?

Byron

—– Original Message —–
From: Bruce & Nora Mai<mailto:casamai@sbcglobal.net>
To: runacc@yahoogroups.com<mailto:runacc@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, June 02, 2005 6:14 PM
Subject: Re: [runacc] Competing Down

Is this already addressed in the ICG guidelines? Is that enough, or is it
felt that it needs to be dictated to each MD at the International level by
the Con Chairs? Most of those International venues are usually run by Guild
people, who should know better. Just throwin’ that out there…

Bruce

View the Document: http://www.Costume-Con.org/procedure/runacc/<http://www.costume-con.org/procedure/runacc/>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

As Andy has pointed out, the revised Guidelines do discuss this topic.
And they are specifically designed so that MDs who are not at the
International level may also choose to use them.

I recommended this before and I will do so again: The current revision
(not submitted yet to the BOD for approval) is at

http://www.costume.org/guidelines-committee/draft2.html

Andy and I are working on the third/final draft, to be presented to the
ICG BOD very soon for approval. Once we present our draft to the BOD,
they will have to determine what to do with it. As a BOD member, it’s my
intention to move that the ICG adopt the revised document, replacing the
existing version.

So, if you have an opinion regarding what this document has to say, now
would be a Very Good Time to provide your input. Like, now!

Once the new document is out there, it will then be the ICG’s
responsibility to deal with getting the word out. The ICG Newsletter
will help, in that regard, but individual ICG members must also bear
some responsibility, since they are the ones who are involved in the
cons that may choose to employ the guidelines in managing masquerades.

As for the individual in question… Did Balticon’s masquerade rules
have a stipulation against competing costumes in this way? If not, then
the costumer in question may have employed questionable ethics but
violated no actual rules. It’s an important distinction. Sitting on the
Devil’s side of things for a moment: If the rules aren’t there, but
there’s an “unwritten” rule against something, how is one to know if one
has not been active in costuming for a while?

In this particular case (yes, I know who it was), I know she’s been out
of costuming for the better part of 10 years. And when she was active,
she wasn’t one of the folks I’d call Active (with a big A). She’s just
getting back in again. Do we casually mention the subject on ICG-D and
thus cause potential ickiness? Nah, I don’t think so. Can we assume that
everyone who competes knows the unwritten rules? Uh-uh. That’s what
masquerade rules are for.

So, as I said, it would be a Real Good Time to read what we’re proposing
so that people are clear on the concept. After we propose, the changes
may well replace what’s there now, and that could happen by the end of
this coming July.

Going back to finishing my last three big projects before catching up
the CC site…

Betsy

Byron Connell wrote:

> The problem isn’t at the international-level masquerades; it’s at the regional/local level masquerades. A Worldcon or CC Masquerade Director has no power to control what a winner at that masquerade may do at some later event. If there is a need to control sandbagging — and it does appear that there is such a need — it has to be done through the rules adopted by regional and local MDs. The ICG Guidelines do explicitly address this; however, regional and local MDs appear not to have adopted that recommended practice. How do we educate them on the need to do so?
>
> Byron
>
>
> —– Original Message —–
> From: Bruce & Nora Mai<mailto:casamai@sbcglobal.net>
> To: runacc@yahoogroups.com<mailto:runacc@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Thursday, June 02, 2005 6:14 PM
> Subject: Re: [runacc] Competing Down
>
>
> Is this already addressed in the ICG guidelines? Is that enough, or is it
> felt that it needs to be dictated to each MD at the International level by
> the Con Chairs? Most of those International venues are usually run by Guild
> people, who should know better. Just throwin’ that out there…
>
> Bruce
>
>
>
> View the Document: http://www.Costume-Con.org/procedure/runacc/<http://www.costume-con.org/procedure/runacc/>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>
> View the Document: http://www.Costume-Con.org/procedure/runacc/
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

At 05:50 PM 6/2/2005 -0700, you wrote:

>I agree that the Balticon rules (and Westercon rules, and BayCon rules)
>should include these clauses. But we’re back to the logistical issue.
>In most conventions, the concom doesn’t care about much more than how
>long the masquerade will take, how much space it needs and what the
>tech budget is. Rules can shift greatly when a new MD comes in. Rules
>do shift greatly in traveling cons, they even shift a bit each year at
>CC as new MDs rewrite them. Most concoms don’t want to try to balance
>between the MDs creative freedom and maintaining continuity even if
>they knew what they were doing.

On the east coast, there is a very consistent “pool” of MDs, and I believe
it would not be hard to implement a written “no sandbagging” rule at a lot
of conventions. In fandom, if you do something three times, it tends to
become tradition, so each MD just has to make sure the “no sandbagging”
clause gets into the masquerade rules three years in a row.

I am blessed/cursed with my dad’s ability to see the “big picture,” often
in utopian terms, and that is why some of the issues discussed here have
broader implications than Costume-Con. I’m hoping that if I throw something
out there that’s worthy of consideration, some of you who are also present
or future masquerade MD’s at whatever con ( as well as being
committeepeople from Costume-Con) will look at it and say, “Hey, that’s a
good idea and I’ll try implementing it at THIS con.”

Fans being fans, and fancons being fancons, this will *never* be
standardized, and I know it, but I’ve always been concerned with the ethics
of masquerades and competitions and trying to make things as fair as
possible for the competitors. And this just seems like it should be a “gimme.”

–Karen

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I agree that the international level competitions do not typically have
sandbagging problems.

However, they *create* masquerade winners that have the potential to become
sandbagging problems at local and regional cons.

In the spirit of cooperation, and as a favor to the “feeder system” of cons
that supply them their entrants, it would not hurt either WorldCon or
Costume-Con to publish a couple of lines in the Masquerade section of their
PRs about not sandbagging your local con after you’ve won at this one. I
know it’s talking about future actions and therefore not binding. But maybe
it’ll plant the seeds in people’s heads so it doesn’t come as a surprise
when they see a “no sandbagging” rule at their local or regional con back home.

I really want to do a “costuming ethics” panel at some future CC, but I
swear it would be ill-attended because it is not a “fun” topic. But it is
so badly needed…

–Karen

At 05:14 PM 6/2/2005 -0500, you wrote:

>Is this already addressed in the ICG guidelines? Is that enough, or is it
>felt that it needs to be dictated to each MD at the International level by
>the Con Chairs? Most of those International venues are usually run by Guild
>people, who should know better. Just throwin’ that out there…
>
>Bruce
>
>
>
>View the Document:
><http://www.Costume-Con.org/procedure/runacc/>http://www.Costume-Con.org/procedure/runacc/
>
>
>
>
>———-
>Yahoo! Groups Links
> * To visit your group on the web, go to:
> *
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/runacc/>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/runacc/
> *
> * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> *
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>
> *
> * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the
> <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>Yahoo! Terms of Service.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I’ve just been reading on this topic, not contributing, so far. However…

(my 2 cents worth): when Sue DeG. was beating the bushes for costumes
several years ago for Lunacon, I agreed to display my Harlequin costume that
had won a novice (best recreation) award at CC8, as an “out of competition”
costume. At the time, there were some questions from some of the audience
because it didn’t get an award. It would be helpful, if a costume is
entered “out of competition,” if the MC or someone could make it clear that
there is a reason for doing so (i.e., it won a major award elsewhere).
We’ve also displayed Byron’s costume from the (Best in Show) Amber group at
Toronto Worldcon at our local con (Albacon) out of competition, because,
again, they really wanted stuff up on stage. In that instance, we made
sure that it was explained that it had won elsewhere, and was for display
purposes.

Frankly, I think that it would be good for the costuming and con-attending
community if more people could get a look at “international” winning
costumes, since a lot of fans don’t make it to WorldCon and/or CC. What
they need to know is that it is for their enjoyment, not for the ego-boo of
the costumer trying to win another award.

Tina

Absolutely agree with everything you said.

–Karen

At 11:39 PM 6/2/2005 -0400, you wrote:

>IFrankly, I think that it would be good for the costuming and con-attending
>community if more people could get a look at “international” winning
>costumes, since a lot of fans don’t make it to WorldCon and/or CC. What
>they need to know is that it is for their enjoyment, not for the ego-boo of
>the costumer trying to win another award.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

And then there was the Midwest costumer who entered Minicon (regional –
when it still had a masquerade) as a novice, and won, then brought it to
CC, entered in Journeyman, and won, then took it to Worldcon, entered it in
Master, and won. Novice to Master in 5 months. And I don’t think any of
them was sandbagging, in retrospect, given the other costumes entered and
the relative size. Yes, CC and WC are technically equal, but some are more
equal than others (small CC and large WC).

Just an observation.

Sandy

At 02:07 PM 6/2/2005, you wrote:

>The exception to what you are suggesting (and I agree, it is Very Poor
>Form) is if you won an award in one of the “protected”
>divisions and re-entered it in a more open division.
>
>At a small convention, even that would be VPF, but at Baycon, with 2400
>attendees, someone who won a (non-Best-in-Division) Novice or self-made
>Young Fan award at CC and chose to enter it at BayCon in the
>Open/Advanced division (Baycon only has 2 adult divisions) might not be
>sandbagging at all.
>Kevin

“Those Who Fail To Learn History
Are Doomed to Repeat It;
Those Who Fail To Learn History Correctly —
Why They Are Simply Doomed.

Achemdro’hm
“The Illusion of Historical Fact”
— C.Y. 4971

Andromeda

That wasn’t sandbagging, that was “competing upward,” which is how it’s
supposed to work.

Competing it the other direction would have been sandbagging.

–Karen

At 11:50 PM 6/2/2005 -0500, you wrote:

>And then there was the Midwest costumer who entered Minicon (regional –
>when it still had a masquerade) as a novice, and won, then brought it to
>CC, entered in Journeyman, and won, then took it to Worldcon, entered it in
>Master, and won.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Tina Connell wrote:

> Frankly, I think that it would be good for the costuming and con-attending
> community if more people could get a look at “international” winning
> costumes, since a lot of fans don’t make it to WorldCon and/or CC. What
> they need to know is that it is for their enjoyment, not for the ego-boo of
> the costumer trying to win another award.

I like it!

That’s the kind of thing that would encourage some people to present
exhibition. Show it, and say that it won at WorldCon, CC or whatever
other large venue it presented at.

It’s also the kind of thing that will help keep WorldCon and CC in
peoples’ minds.

The trick now is to seed regionals with exhibition pieces. Unfortunately
for us, our most prolific and coolest entrants somehow seem to put
together new entries for nearly every masquerade of regional level or
higher that they can get to.

andy

We’ve shown our Costume-Con pieces (Crimson King) Not In Competition at
Balticon.

The only reason we didn’t do it this year is that Cait wanted to compete a
solo for the first time on her own, plus we couldn’t get the two West-Coast
members of Ascension to the con.

This is a good way to get masquerade numbers up even if you don’t have
anything new to compete, and people love seeing the costumes in person. (We
did wear our Ascension uniforms in the halls, and got a lot of comments.)

–Karen

At 11:03 PM 6/2/2005 -0700, you wrote:

>Tina Connell wrote:
> > Frankly, I think that it would be good for the costuming and con-attending
> > community if more people could get a look at “international” winning
> > costumes, since a lot of fans don’t make it to WorldCon and/or CC. What
> > they need to know is that it is for their enjoyment, not for the
> ego-boo of
> > the costumer trying to win another award.
>
>I like it!
>
>That’s the kind of thing that would encourage some people to present
>exhibition. Show it, and say that it won at WorldCon, CC or whatever
>other large venue it presented at.
>
>It’s also the kind of thing that will help keep WorldCon and CC in
>peoples’ minds.
>
>The trick now is to seed regionals with exhibition pieces. Unfortunately
>for us, our most prolific and coolest entrants somehow seem to put
>together new entries for nearly every masquerade of regional level or
>higher that they can get to.
>
>andy
>
>
>View the Document:
><http://www.Costume-Con.org/procedure/runacc/>http://www.Costume-Con.org/procedure/runacc/
>
>
>
>
>———-
>Yahoo! Groups Links
> * To visit your group on the web, go to:
> *
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/runacc/>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/runacc/
> *
> * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> *
> <mailto:runacc-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe>runacc-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
> *
> * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the
> <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>Yahoo! Terms of Service.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Do you know, if this is this a “open letter” that can passed on to
other venues, possibly public ones?

Or do we need contact her to see about passing it on to other CC
committees, MDs, and/or Costume Panel coordinators?

JohnO

— In runacc@yahoogroups.com, “Bruno” <bruno@s…> wrote:
> I had one of the young anime costumers that came out from CO, write
up some feedback on her impressions and experiences at CC. The first
part is directed at other cosplayers, but does provide some insight on
how this generation thinks and feels about costuming. I’m sure that
there are some nuggets of wisdom here, which can be used to help
bridge the gap between the CC and Cosplay generations.
>
>
> Michael
>
> —– Original Message —–
>
>
> I’m a cosplayer who survived her first CostumeCon! Or atleast
that’s how I felt when I cam back from CostumeCon 23. It was highly
educational but there were some things that were not very enjoyable.
As one of the younger generation into costuming but coming at it from
a cosplay sort of view, here are my thoughts about what cosplayers
should know about CostumeCon and what CostumeCon should know about
cosplayers.

{{{snip}}}

Hi, John!

As ICG Newsletter Editor and Costume-ConNections site manager, I already
contacted the author, and I have her permission to reproduce on both the
Costume-Con.org site (under CC23 – reviews), and in the next Newsletter
(this August).

Once I have the time to update the site – sometime next week the work
begins), I’ll be including her article. I think if you want to forward
the link, that’s okay. It’ll be public info at that point. But she took
pains to adjust some of her writing, so please don’t use the version
Mike sent.

Thanks!

Betsy

johalloran wrote:

> Do you know, if this is this a “open letter” that can passed on to
> other venues, possibly public ones?
>
> Or do we need contact her to see about passing it on to other CC
> committees, MDs, and/or Costume Panel coordinators?
>
> JohnO
>
>
> — In runacc@yahoogroups.com, “Bruno” <bruno@s…> wrote:
>
>>I had one of the young anime costumers that came out from CO, write
>
> up some feedback on her impressions and experiences at CC. The first
> part is directed at other cosplayers, but does provide some insight on
> how this generation thinks and feels about costuming. I’m sure that
> there are some nuggets of wisdom here, which can be used to help
> bridge the gap between the CC and Cosplay generations.
>
>>
>>Michael
>>
>>—– Original Message —–
>>
>>
>> I’m a cosplayer who survived her first CostumeCon! Or atleast
>
> that’s how I felt when I cam back from CostumeCon 23. It was highly
> educational but there were some things that were not very enjoyable.
> As one of the younger generation into costuming but coming at it from
> a cosplay sort of view, here are my thoughts about what cosplayers
> should know about CostumeCon and what CostumeCon should know about
> cosplayers.
>
> {{{snip}}}
>
>
>
>
>
>
> View the Document: http://www.Costume-Con.org/procedure/runacc/
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

no problem.

JohnO

Betsy Delaney wrote:

> Hi, John!
>
> As ICG Newsletter Editor and Costume-ConNections site manager, I already
> contacted the author, and I have her permission to reproduce on both the
> Costume-Con.org site (under CC23 – reviews), and in the next Newsletter
> (this August).
>
> Once I have the time to update the site – sometime next week the work
> begins), I’ll be including her article. I think if you want to forward
> the link, that’s okay. It’ll be public info at that point. But she took
> pains to adjust some of her writing, so please don’t use the version
> Mike sent.
>
> Thanks!
>
> Betsy
>
> johalloran wrote:
>
> > Do you know, if this is this a “open letter” that can passed on to
> > other venues, possibly public ones?
> >
> > Or do we need contact her to see about passing it on to other CC
> > committees, MDs, and/or Costume Panel coordinators?
> >
> > JohnO
> >
> >
> > — In runacc@yahoogroups.com, “Bruno” <bruno@s…> wrote:
> >
> >>I had one of the young anime costumers that came out from CO, write
> >
> > up some feedback on her impressions and experiences at CC. The first
> > part is directed at other cosplayers, but does provide some insight on
> > how this generation thinks and feels about costuming. I’m sure that
> > there are some nuggets of wisdom here, which can be used to help
> > bridge the gap between the CC and Cosplay generations.
> >
> >>
> >>Michael
> >>
> >>—– Original Message —–
> >>
> >>
> >> I’m a cosplayer who survived her first CostumeCon! Or atleast
> >
> > that’s how I felt when I cam back from CostumeCon 23. It was highly
> > educational but there were some things that were not very enjoyable.
> > As one of the younger generation into costuming but coming at it from
> > a cosplay sort of view, here are my thoughts about what cosplayers
> > should know about CostumeCon and what CostumeCon should know about
> > cosplayers.
> >
> > {{{snip}}}
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > View the Document: http://www.Costume-Con.org/procedure/runacc/
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> View the Document: http://www.Costume-Con.org/procedure/runacc/
>
>
> ————————————————————————
> *Yahoo! Groups Links*
>
> * To visit your group on the web, go to:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/runacc/
>
> * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> runacc-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> <mailto:runacc-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe>
>
> * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
> Service <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>.
>
>

Re Byron:

> The problem isn’t at the international-level masquerades; it’s at the

regional/local >level masquerades. How do we educate them on the need to
do so?

That’s a very good question, because there’s always the danger of our
appearing to be “dictating” again, despite the fact that we actually have a
legitimate concern.
Karen’s “throwing it out there” is about the best approach we can hope for.
Of course, this provides that an MD will be receptive to input. Some are –
some aren’t, as we all know.

Re Karen: > I really want to do a “costuming ethics” panel at some future
CC, but I > swear it would be ill-attended because it is not a “fun” topic.
But it is

> so badly needed…

I’d go to it. I love that sort of crap. 🙂 These kinds of issues don’t
usually get discussed except in private bull sessions, and really should be.
The key to take some angle to the subject matter and at least make the title
sound interesting. Maybe people will stay anyway.

Re Tina and Andy’s comments: Archon has worked this out fairly well. They
refer to the entries as in the “Exhibition Class”. I can’t remember if they
specifically say they are not in competition (I don’t think so). But they
have mentioned that the costumes won X award(s) at a Worldcon. I don’t
think we’ve actually had anyone demo a CC entry, though.

As it’s been mentioned, we’re usually too busy working on the next project
to show something “old”. As Karen has stated, we’ve got all these ideas
that have to get out and have finite time and venues to get them out in
front of people.

Bruce

In a message dated 6/3/2005 10:51:36 PM Central Daylight Time,
casamai@sbcglobal.net writes: >

> Re Byron:
>
> >The problem isn’t at the international-level masquerades; it’s at the
> regional/local >level masquerades. How do we educate them on the need to
> do so?

Speaking for us here in the Metro Milwaukee/Chicago area that run masquerades
at smaller cons, we are doing the best we can about that. Which is why I do
volunteer to run or help with masquerades in the area.

We are also doing what we can to encourage people to compete at all! next
weekend at Duckon 14, I am “running” the Hall Costume Masquerade, basically Hall
Costumes. Last year, I turned the masquerade into a show, which everyone in
the audience enjoyed, due to lack of entries.

Henry Osier
CostumeCon 28 in Milwaukee in 2010

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

On Jun 3, 2005, at 8:52 PM, Bruce & Nora Mai wrote:

> re Tina and Andy’s comments: Archon has worked this out fairly well.
> They
> refer to the entries as in the “Exhibition Class”. I can’t remember
> if they
> specifically say they are not in competition (I don’t think so). But
> they
> have mentioned that the costumes won X award(s) at a Worldcon. I don’t
> think we’ve actually had anyone demo a CC entry, though.

It’s not like we haven’t had “exhibition” class forever, it’s just Tina
came up a way with making it desirable…

—
Andy Trembley, Bull-in-Drag
The Bovine Illuminati (It’s the Cows, Inc.)
http://www.bovil.com/
Moo!

While looking for a certain dealer of Cowboy clothing, I found this site:
http://www.curtrich.com/costume.html. I know that the Cowboy crowd has their own
contests, but this is the first time I have found a web page devoted to it.

Henry Osier
CostumeCon 28 in Milwaukee in 2010
e-mail CC2010Milw@cs.com for more information

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

We’re trying to make a decision on how much to charge for dealers table for
CC25. Right now, we’re considering making tables $105 for a table (less for
additional tables) and memberships about $65 for one and additional
memberships at a slightly reduced rate.

We heard that CC24 has a rather low rate of $50 per table (no membership
included). Is this correct?

We’d like opinions and stats on what the other committees have charged/will
charge and whether our rates are too high, or about right.

Bruce

A seperate dealers room issue:

Janet has supposedly offered to bring her business to CC25 if we can give
her a seperate room. We’re trying to maintain a balance between Exhibits
and Dealers. As it is, we’re probably going to have to split up our
Exhibits into 2 rooms, because I believe it’s extremely important to give K
& R as much space to represent the Con’s history as we can.

I think our dealers rep has plans for something like 20 tables. I believe
we have a yet-to-be stated policy of a limit of 2 tables per dealer. Given
that people would really like to see her bring her shop, since she has some
of the best selection and variety, how does one address the issue of limited
availabilty? Pierre seems to recall she had 6 at CC23. It’s difficult to
give any kind of committments too far in advance, since we would like to get
as many dealers to come as possible. I’m not entirely certain we have a
room to spare for just one dealer, important as she is.

If we accomodated Janet with more tables, then there’s the issue of the
other dealers seeing a double-standard.

Your input is welcome.

Bruce

Does your $105 include one membership?

–Karen

At 05:07 PM 6/19/2005 -0500, you wrote:

>We’re trying to make a decision on how much to charge for dealers table for
>CC25. Right now, we’re considering making tables $105 for a table (less for
>additional tables) and memberships about $65 for one and additional
>memberships at a slightly reduced rate.
>
>We heard that CC24 has a rather low rate of $50 per table (no membership
>included). Is this correct?
>
>We’d like opinions and stats on what the other committees have charged/will
>charge and whether our rates are too high, or about right.
>
>Bruce
>
>
>
>View the Document:
><http://www.Costume-Con.org/procedure/runacc/>http://www.Costume-Con.org/procedure/runacc/
>
>
>
>
>———-
>Yahoo! Groups Links
> * To visit your group on the web, go to:
> *
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/runacc/>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/runacc/
> *
> * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> *
> <mailto:runacc-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe>runacc-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
> *
> * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the
> <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>Yahoo! Terms of Service.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

First and foremost, don’t be afraid to say “no” to Janet if the logistics
are not good for you. She’s a businessperson; she should understand. But if
you can accommodate her, she is always a popular draw as a dealer.

Is there a suite, breakout rooms not being used for panels, or something
similar in the hotel where Janet can put her dealer stuff, have her own
key, and set her own hours? Don’t be afraid to charge her a rate
commensurate with the amount of space she takes up. (Maybe you can parlay
this into extra favors from the hotel, as you’d be renting more space and
giving them more $$$.)

From Janet’s standpoint, it is expensive for her to drive her inventory
that far across country to a convention, so she wants to bring EVERYTHING
so she can make as many sales as possible to make up for her expenses.
(Been there, done that with our now defunct clown business and totally
understand where she’s coming from.)

She may have overlap in wares with some of your other dealers, and that may
cause issues. She can take up lots of space, so if you have to put
everybody in one dealer’s room, that may severely limit how many other
dealers you can have. And you already mentioned the problem with letting
her have more space/tables if other dealers are only allowed two.

If there’s some other logical place in the hotel where Exhibits can move
(that is secure and does not require breakdown every night), that may be an
option, too. We’ll just have to make sure there’s good signage, etc. so
people don’t overlook it.

Pierre–is Janet dealing at Des Moines? If so, how are you handling it?

Henry, how did you deal with Janet at Chicago? (I know there was talk of a
separate room, but security was an issue.)

Dave and Henry, how did the other dealers feel about Janet having so much
dealer space?

–Karen

At 05:20 PM 6/19/2005 -0500, you wrote:

>A seperate dealers room issue:
>
>Janet has supposedly offered to bring her business to CC25 if we can give
>her a seperate room. We’re trying to maintain a balance between Exhibits
>and Dealers. As it is, we’re probably going to have to split up our
>Exhibits into 2 rooms, because I believe it’s extremely important to give K
>& R as much space to represent the Con’s history as we can.
>
>I think our dealers rep has plans for something like 20 tables. I believe
>we have a yet-to-be stated policy of a limit of 2 tables per dealer. Given
>that people would really like to see her bring her shop, since she has some
>of the best selection and variety, how does one address the issue of limited
>availabilty? Pierre seems to recall she had 6 at CC23. It’s difficult to
>give any kind of committments too far in advance, since we would like to get
>as many dealers to come as possible. I’m not entirely certain we have a
>room to spare for just one dealer, important as she is.
>
>If we accomodated Janet with more tables, then there’s the issue of the
>other dealers seeing a double-standard.
>
>Your input is welcome.
>
>Bruce
>
>
>
>View the Document:
><http://www.Costume-Con.org/procedure/runacc/>http://www.Costume-Con.org/procedure/runacc/
>
>
>
>
>———-
>Yahoo! Groups Links
> * To visit your group on the web, go to:
> *
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> <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>Yahoo! Terms of Service.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Bruce, and all,
FYI, the deal we ended up cutting with Janet back at CC21 basically
almost paid for the room we set her up in. We took a bit of a bath on the cost,
but we thought the draw of Janet/Alteryears was worth it.
I didn’t hear anything negative from the other dealers about the
arrangement, but it is something to consider.
At CC23, Janet had about 1/4 to 1/3 of the Dealers Room, and filled it
to the brim with her stuff. I do remember Dave Doering shooting me e-mail
about the deal we gave her at 21. I told him the pro’s and con’s that I could
think of, which are basically the draw of Alteryears/Janet vs. more dealers. I
side towards the first. In addition, I think Janet brings a good vibe to the
con.
Henry Osier
PS And talking of dealers for your CC, Bruce, I’d love to see
Clearwater Hats again!

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

>In discussing Alteryears arrangements for CC23, I should note:

1. Because of the relatively small size of Atlanta’s dealers room, we opted
not to set a specific limit to the number of tables one dealer could have
as a way of encouraging more dealers to come. The thought being that if we
way over-sold, we always could use 1/3 of the ballroom as an alternate
dealer’s room. (giving us about two times the space we did have).

So if Janet was willing to pay for the space, we were willing to have her
take up more.

2. We offered one table with one full membership for $120, two tables/two
memberships for $200. Additional tables did not include additional
memberships. We were willing to offer a discounted membership to any dealer
who needed more, but no one asked for one, so that didn’t come up. We
probably would have gone for a $50 rate on those.

3. Rates were set at 1 for $120, 2 for $200, 3 for $270, and 4 for $330.

4. For Janet, we measured out the space and found that the south end of the
room was approximately six 8′ tables–about 1/4 of the room. (It was
convenient that the doors allowed for that end of the room to kind of be
its own space.) So we cut her a deal for $450.00 for this space. This may
seem low, but we did want her there, did want other dealers to know about
this draw (Janet is both a competitor and a draw for buyers), and since the
hotel rental fee was low (about $200/day for that space), we thought this
deal worth it.

To be honest, there were several challenges working with Janet.

First, she can be tough to get a hold of. It could be weeks or even several
months before she would answer e-mail. I finally got her cellphone number
after seeing her at Costume College, but even then, I might go a week or
two with just the answering service picking up.

Second, she appeared to suffer from cash-flow problems. So even though we
set a low fee for her, she still struggled to arrange for the money to pay
for that. It was only after I gave her a drop-dead date weeks after
everyone else and said that if I did not have the money in by the end of
that business day, I would sell the space to another dealer, that I finally
got a check from her.

The reason that this definitely concerned me was that it was a cascading
problem: if Janet couldn’t afford the $450, how would she be able to afford
new merchandise for the show? How would she afford travel expenses? What
about any contingencies, such as a flat tire on the road?

Fortunately, she came through with flying colors. But it was a concern.

Third, because of the communications issues, I had to resend at least three
times the dealer’s packet to Janet. There wasn’t an acknowledgement on
either of the first two times, and I actually had to talk on the cellphone
to her before confirming the third. By not hearing from her, I wasn’t sure
if she was declining our invitation, mulling it over, out of town, changed
address, etc.

Finally, she appeared understaffed for the quantity of goods she had–so
she wanted to start setup on Thursday PM to be ready by noon on Friday.
However, that would have cost more to rent. So we ended up having the hotel
open the room at 6AM so Janet could bring in her goods.

The same issue came up on Monday. In order to reach the 6PM deadline for
teardown, several volunteers had to pitch in so she could be packed up
ready to go. (The inside scoop is that the hotel’s staffer was going
off-duty at 7PM and needed to get the room vacuumed prior to his leaving.)
Fortunately, in the tradition of CC, there were plenty of us willing to
dive in to do the packing, for which I am grateful, so the job got done.

That said, I had no problems with Janet on site. There was no complaining
about size/arrangement of space. Nor did I hear any issues from other
dealers about size, etc. for Alteryears. Given that any dealer could have
purchased six tables worth of space if they wanted to, I think everyone
felt it fair if one did.

We did discuss with various dealers about using suites/function space for
one dealer’s exclusive use. The primary objection, if it is one, being that
these spaces were almost always off the beaten track–hence would get less
or even no traffic during the con compared to the dealers room. As happened
in Chicago, Alteryears made this arrangement work. However, for Ogden,
there wasn’t really a separate space close by to use for this option, so we
never really pursued it.

Dave Doering

>Bruce, and all,
> FYI, the deal we ended up cutting with Janet back at CC21 basically
>almost paid for the room we set her up in. We took a bit of a bath on the
>cost,
>but we thought the draw of Janet/Alteryears was worth it.
> I didn’t hear anything negative from the other dealers about the
>arrangement, but it is something to consider.
> At CC23, Janet had about 1/4 to 1/3 of the Dealers Room, and
> filled it
>to the brim with her stuff. I do remember Dave Doering shooting me e-mail
>about the deal we gave her at 21. I told him the pro’s and con’s that I could
>think of, which are basically the draw of Alteryears/Janet vs. more
>dealers. I
>side towards the first. In addition, I think Janet brings a good vibe to the
>con.
> Henry Osier
> PS And talking of dealers for your CC, Bruce, I’d love to see
>Clearwater Hats again!
>
>
>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>View the Document:
><http://www.Costume-Con.org/procedure/runacc/>http://www.Costume-Con.org/procedure/runacc/
>
>
>
>
>———-
>Yahoo! Groups Links
> * To visit your group on the web, go to:
> *
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/runacc/>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/runacc/
> *
> * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> *
> <mailto:runacc-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe>runacc-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
> *
> * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the
> <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>Yahoo! Terms of Service.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Dave, this is GREAT information you provided, and I hope Bruce finds it
helpful. I certainly found it enlightening, although I’m not sure if this
will be a concern for CC-27 (Baltimore is probably too far for Janet to
drive her wares and still have it be cost-effective.)

I, too, have had problems (for *years*) with contacting Janet by email
(it’s like dropping notes into a black hole, never to be seen again), so
don’t feel bad. So this is definitely a concern for anyone trying to
contact her.

–Karen

At 02:48 PM 6/20/2005 -0600, you wrote:

> >In discussing Alteryears arrangements for CC23, I should note…

<snip>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

What this discussion has been about has to a certain extent hinged on Janet
vs. other dealers and how they feel about her.

As a customer, I don’t think that there’s a lot of conflict. She carries a
good number of specialty items that most other dealers don’t offer. She
also has a primo selection of books and patterns, including some rather
esoteric ones. However, I bought my corset supplies from the corset dealer,
not her (Farthingales’ prices were better than Janet’s), and likewise
fabric, beads and trims from other dealers. For a newbie costumer, or for
someone who does not have any local access to exotica, she’s a treasure!
And she’s always willing to be helpful, make suggestions (even if they don’t
result in a sale), talk to newbies, and so forth, so she’s a resource, not
just a dealer.

As long as the rest of the room is fairly well balanced, I would not expect
there to be a conflict. Most of the established dealers already know her.
If a brand new dealer wanted in, you might want to explain the situation if
their stock-in-trade was likely to compete directly.

Tina

—– Original Message —–
From: <osierhenry@cs.com>
To: <runacc@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, June 20, 2005 12:26 PM
Subject: Re: [runacc] Dealing with Janet Wilson-Anderson

> Bruce, and all,
> FYI, the deal we ended up cutting with Janet back at CC21 basically
> almost paid for the room we set her up in. We took a bit of a bath on the
> cost,
> but we thought the draw of Janet/Alteryears was worth it.
> I didn’t hear anything negative from the other dealers about the
> arrangement, but it is something to consider.
> At CC23, Janet had about 1/4 to 1/3 of the Dealers Room, and filled
> it
> to the brim with her stuff. I do remember Dave Doering shooting me e-mail
> about the deal we gave her at 21. I told him the pro’s and con’s that I
> could
> think of, which are basically the draw of Alteryears/Janet vs. more
> dealers. I
> side towards the first. In addition, I think Janet brings a good vibe to
> the
> con.
> Henry Osier
> PS And talking of dealers for your CC, Bruce, I’d love to see
> Clearwater Hats again!

I realized when I saw Gaylene vending in Reno, that limiting vendor’s to two tables (which we might tend to do at CONduit), might not work for CC-23.

Many of our vendors were going to be driving in from out-of-area. What we wanted, was a good variety, but not so many vendors that none of them would make any money. In the case of both Gaylene (fabric from Oregon), and Janet Wilson-Anderson (CA), we knew they would both be loading up a truck, and it didn’t really make sense for them to bring in only half a truck load.

I know Kathy Evans (Seattle area) could have brought more stuff, but I think she had a pretty good idea of what the other vendors were going to bring, and she was used to custumizing her wares to each market.

We were reluctant to totally over-fill the room too early, since there may be some special opportunity pop up at the last minute.

When we actually had the room finalized, I was actually a bit surprised at how few vendors we really had, but I thought we had mananged to cover the important areas quite well. (Fabric, trim, beads, books, patterns, and other do-dads). The room was quite adequate for these vendors. When we did first set-up, some vendors wondered what Janet’s space was (how many tables / how much money) since it was the largest allocation, and they were re-assured that she had been charged extra.

I should point out that a number of the vendors wanted a “space/area” (and electrical outlets), and the simple fixed-fee-per-table-maximum-of-two (like we do at CONduit), simply would have not been a good policy. We needed to determine what their space area would be, not just a fixed table design. (and there was some last minute adjusting)

As it was, most of the vendors did adequately well, which was a concern given the fairly small numbers of attendees for the event.

Charles

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

At 04:56 PM 6/20/2005 -0600, you wrote:

>I should point out that a number of the vendors wanted a “space/area” (and
>electrical outlets), and the simple fixed-fee-per-table-maximum-of-two
>(like we do at CONduit), simply would have not been a good policy.

Re “space/area.” This is an interesting concept, and one used frequently at
trade shows. You don’t get “tables,” you get a 10×12 (or whatever
dimensions) space, and set up within that space according to your needs
(maybe tables, maybe not). Vendors request tables and chairs if they need
them; otherwise, the floorspace is blank when they arrive. I know when
Ricky and I are vending, we don’t want to “hide” behind a table and
typically want a space/area arrangement where we can set up a big “U” with
racks and maybe one table.

Whether you are selling tables or “spaces,” make sure you have room for
adequate aisles to keep your fire marshal happy. If you are selling
“spaces” vs. tables, you may need to go through the room and mark off the
“spaces” on the floor with a roll of masking or drafting tape so your
vendors don’t end up spilling into the aisles. (Again, this is what they do
at the trade shows, and you are politely asked to reconfigure your booth if
it is “over the line.”

–Karen

–Karen

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

>Charles wrote about numbers of dealers and such.

Yes, I forgot to mention that Charles and I discussed at length the need to
balance the expected number of attendees with the number of dealers. We
realized that a concerted marketing effort might bring 15-20 dealers in,
but would leave most with little profit for the weekend. We didn’t want
that or the bad PR it would bring to CC’s in general. (Hey, don’t do CC,
you can’t make money there.)

We would have liked to have known something of other CC dealers rooms,
particularly number of dealers compared with attendance. It’s probably
impossible to find out, but trying to get some feedback from dealers as to
“was it worth it?” might be key here. Can a 250-person CC support six
dealers, eight dealers, what? What can a 500-person con do?

Also, as Charles says, we had a lengthy discussion on space vs. tables
approach. Most CC dealers have their own racks/display arrangements, so a
typical con “table” layout isn’t the most useful. However, we opted to stay
with it because it is a universal (an 8′ table with two chairs and space
behind). If we had gone with a “you are renting 550 sq ft” it would be
harder to lay out.

Finally, it would have been impractical to try and figure out a price per
square foot and try to work all this out with each dealer _and_ fit it into
the actual room.

I really would prefer to do what they did at Costume College, with a
clearly laid out floor plan that takes into consideration the odd shape of
their room to make the most space available to dealers. (They even go so
far as to masking tape the floor of the room for setup!) However, since
College uses the same space year to year, it is easier to come up with
those arrangements vs. the one-off of CC23.

In fact, Kathy Evans was our unsung hero for the CC23 Dealer’s Room, as
discovered the table setup we found on Friday morning simply would not work
for the dealer’s room. Kathy stepped right in and made the floor
plan/tables work. (This by the way was not the hotel’s fault, but simply a
notion by one of our staffers to try and “improve” the traffic flow. Again,
this is a problem when you have an all-volunteer staff with varying skill
levels.)

The other aspect that Charles mentioned was electricity. We mapped out the
available outlets, and found the room was underserved with only about ten
to fifteen outlets. This raised a concern if everyone wanted to run
high-intensity lighting, for example. Fortunately, not everyone wanted
electricity. But as we have discussed before on hotel electricity for the
masquerade, we can put too much demand on a circuit–potentially blowing
the fuse, so to speak.

Also, if we had done an island approach (dealers on the outside of the room
and some in the middle), we would have had to run an extension cord or two
across the aisles. This presents a tripping hazard, requires taping down,
and thus is an added hassle. Again, we didn’t have this as a problem
because we had only one unlighted display table in the middle.

All in all, the room turned out well, with Farthingales saying that this
was their best convention ever.

Dave Doering

(Replying to Dave’s comments)

In terms of what to charge the vendors for space…

I’m sure we charged the vendors enough to cover the cost of the room rental. And we certainly didn’t want to drop the price below what a membership cost. We did set the price a bit low, in the sense that we knew that they would be coming from out-of-area, and didn’t expect huge sales.

My point is that if there is a local vendor, who is trying for promotion leading to follow-on sales after the con, then they would be more willing to take a loss at the event. But at CC-23, most of the expected sales would be occuring right there at the event, based on who we expected the vendors to be.
—————–
The vendor-room actually had a pretty good supply of electrical outlets, but there was still the concern of trailing cable-cords, and possibly (if everyone wanted lots of power) maxing out the circuits (I never did know exactly how many circuits we had). Keep in mind, the number of circuits is not the same as the number of plug outlets. I think typically, there are about 3 or 4 electrical double-outlet boxes per circuit, each circuit set for 20 amps. If we had 9 double outlet boxes in that dealers room, I’d expect about three 20-amp circuits. But I might still need to know which outlets were on which circuit. This type of detail becomes even more important if you are trying to run stage-lighting from out of the room outlets (a room plug-outlet is typically rated at 15 amps, maybe 20 amps). But don’t try to run 15 or 20 amps through a light-weight extension cord.

Charles

—– Original Message —–
From: David Doering
>Charles wrote about numbers of dealers and such.

Yes, I forgot to mention that Charles and I discussed at length the need to
balance the expected number of attendees with the number of dealers. We
realized that a concerted marketing effort might bring 15-20 dealers in,
but would leave most with little profit for the weekend. We didn’t want
that or the bad PR it would bring to CC’s in general. (Hey, don’t do CC,
you can’t make money there.)

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

At 06:05 PM 6/19/2005, you wrote:

>Pierre–is Janet dealing at Des Moines? If so, how are you handling it?

As of this moment I don’t believe she’s contacted us.

Pierre

>Henry, how did you deal with Janet at Chicago? (I know there was talk of a
>separate room, but security was an issue.)
>
>Dave and Henry, how did the other dealers feel about Janet having so much
>dealer space?
>
>–Karen
>
>At 05:20 PM 6/19/2005 -0500, you wrote:
> >A seperate dealers room issue:
> >
> >Janet has supposedly offered to bring her business to CC25 if we can give
> >her a seperate room. We’re trying to maintain a balance between Exhibits
> >and Dealers. As it is, we’re probably going to have to split up our
> >Exhibits into 2 rooms, because I believe it’s extremely important to give K
> >& R as much space to represent the Con’s history as we can.
> >
> >I think our dealers rep has plans for something like 20 tables. I believe
> >we have a yet-to-be stated policy of a limit of 2 tables per dealer. Given
> >that people would really like to see her bring her shop, since she has some
> >of the best selection and variety, how does one address the issue of limited
> >availabilty? Pierre seems to recall she had 6 at CC23. It’s difficult to
> >give any kind of committments too far in advance, since we would like to get
> >as many dealers to come as possible. I’m not entirely certain we have a
> >room to spare for just one dealer, important as she is.
> >
> >If we accomodated Janet with more tables, then there’s the issue of the
> >other dealers seeing a double-standard.
> >
> >Your input is welcome.
> >
> >Bruce

“Those Who Fail To Learn History
Are Doomed to Repeat It;
Those Who Fail To Learn History Correctly —
Why They Are Simply Doomed.

Achemdro’hm
“The Illusion of Historical Fact”
— C.Y. 4971

Andromeda