Hi, folks!

Just a quick message to let you know:

I’ve just added Michael Bruno and Byron Connell to the list.

If you want to recommend adding someone to the list, requests should go
to me, (at least for the short term, subject to change at some point).

If you’re on this list and you didn’t intend to be, or don’t want to
stay, let me know and I’ll remove your email addy.

You can manipulate a lot of what the group can do for you by visiting
the Yahoo Groups page. This includes setting calendar items, uploading
files, reading archives, and so on.

If you have any questions, please let me know!

Thanks,

Betsy
—
—
Betsy R. Delaney
Web Mistress at large

************************************************************************
http://www.WebInvent.com/ * http://www.hawkeswood.com/
http://www.Costume-Con.org/ * http://www.sickpups.org/
http://www.SchoolWithoutWalls.org/
************************************************************************

However, when we need to be brief, such as with the mundane press, on a

>flyer, or in an ad, what would be most appropriate?
>

How about ignoring descriptives totally, and opting for something along the
lines of, “Costumers of every skill level and a wide variety of costume
interests. These fields of interest may include…………..”

Elaine

_________________________________________________________________
MSN 9 Dial-up Internet Access fights spam and pop-ups � now 3 months FREE!
http://join.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200361ave/direct/01/

Hi, folks!

I’ve added Karen as a full moderator for the group. Requests to add,
remove, etc. can now go to either of us.

Cheers,

Betsy
—
—
Betsy R. Delaney
Web Mistress at large

************************************************************************
http://www.WebInvent.com/ * http://www.hawkeswood.com/
http://www.Costume-Con.org/ * http://www.sickpups.org/
http://www.SchoolWithoutWalls.org/
************************************************************************

As most of you probably know, Ricky and I are running the Fashion Design
Contest for CC-23.

I really could use address lists of designers who have participated in the
last two contests, in the hopes we can do a mailing to them to jump-start
the contest. I don’t have the last two Folios within easy reach (they’re in
the house…somewhere).

Henry and Trudy, if you could contact the people on your committees who ran
the Folio for you and see if they can get address lists to me, that would
be GREAT!

Fran Evans has supplied me with her address list of designers, but some of
the addresses on it are known to be old and need to be verified. My own
address list dates to Costume-Con 9, so it is even older than Fran’s and
probably even more unreliable.

Any help anyone can give would be greatly appreciated. We’ll be flyering
other conventions, too, but doing a direct mailing to known designers is
probably going to reap the most benefits at this point.

–Karen

What about “Costume enthusiast”?

Bruce

—– Original Message —–
From: “Betsy Delaney” <bdelaney@hawkeswood.com>
To: <runacc@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, June 30, 2004 12:56 AM
Subject: Re: [runacc] Avocational vs. Hobbyist

> Not to plagiarize, but here’s what the ICG lists on their site:
>
> “We welcome everyone with an interest in the art of costuming – from
> concept to assembly to display and all stages in between – in all areas
> of costume. Our members include historic reenactors, professional,
> educational and community theatrical costumers, science fiction
> fans,renaissance festival participants, and a vast array of others who
> are interested in the making, wearing and display of costume.”
>
> It isn’t the shortest sentence in the world, but it does convey the
> important stuff. Some tweaking to allow for “original” text might be
> good, and it could, in theory, be shortened, but if you’re sending out a
> press release, that’s how I’d phrase it.
>
> I recall sitting in the lobby at the Lord Baltimore talking to a
> reporter just after the Fashion Show at CCXV, explaining who we were. It
> took quite some time. Fortunately, I had Bridget Landry and Vicki Warren
> wander by – a rocket scientist and nuclear physicist respectively. It
> was a prime example of the reach we have, and the ecclectic composition
> of our crowd.
>
> I’d emphasize the crossroads theme when talking about the different
> aspects of our community, to bring focus to that theme. And for a deeper
> explanation, you can always point them to your web site and to mine,
> which contains an excellent explanation of our history at:
>
> http://www.Costume-Con.org/genesis.shtml
>
> -b
>
> David Doering wrote:
> >
> > >Henry wrote: “We shouldn’t try to label who comes to CC’s.”
> >
> > Betsy wrote: “I don’t think we should even try to reduce the kind of
people
> > Costume-Con attracts to one label…”
> >
> > Don’t get me wrong. I too want every kind of costumer–Royal Court,
Middle
> > Eastern, Furry, Anime, Historical–to come. I also don’t want to label
any
> > group as “the chosen ones” versus the “groundlings.” Hence our
“crossroads”
> > theme for CC23.
> >
> > However, when we need to be brief, such as with the mundane press, on a
> > flyer, or in an ad, what would be most appropriate?
> >
> > Dave D.
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> >
> >
> > View the Document: http://www.Costume-Con.org/procedure/runacc/
> >
> >
> > *Yahoo! Groups Sponsor*
> > ADVERTISEMENT
> >
<http://us.ard.yahoo.com/SIG=129j4fok1/M=298184.5022502.6152625.3001176/D=gr
oups/S=1707300337:HM/EXP=1088643671/A=2164339/R=0/SIG=11e2d64in/*http://www.
netflix.com/Default?mqso=60183348>
> >
> >
> > ————————————————————————
> > *Yahoo! Groups Links*
> >
> > * To visit your group on the web, go to:
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/runacc/
> >
> > * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> > runacc-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> > <mailto:runacc-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe>
> >
> > * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
> > Service <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>.
> >
> >
>
> —
> —
> Betsy R. Delaney
> Web Mistress at large
>
> ************************************************************************
> http://www.WebInvent.com/ * http://www.hawkeswood.com/
> http://www.Costume-Con.org/ * http://www.sickpups.org/
> http://www.SchoolWithoutWalls.org/
> ************************************************************************
>
>
>
> View the Document: http://www.Costume-Con.org/procedure/runacc/
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>

Karen –

Steve Swope and Karen Heim ran our Folio. Karen would probably be the best
bet for the addresses, since she’s the one who mailed them all out.

Trudy

>From: Ricky & Karen Dick <castleb@pulsenet.com>
>Reply-To: runacc@yahoogroups.com
>To: runacc@yahoogroups.com
>Subject: Re: [runacc] Need Fashion Design Contest Help
>Date: Mon, 05 Jul 2004 13:04:54 -0400
>
>As most of you probably know, Ricky and I are running the Fashion Design
>Contest for CC-23.
>
>I really could use address lists of designers who have participated in the
>last two contests, in the hopes we can do a mailing to them to jump-start
>the contest. I don’t have the last two Folios within easy reach (they’re in
>the house…somewhere).
>
>Henry and Trudy, if you could contact the people on your committees who ran
>the Folio for you and see if they can get address lists to me, that would
>be GREAT!
>
>Fran Evans has supplied me with her address list of designers, but some of
>the addresses on it are known to be old and need to be verified. My own
>address list dates to Costume-Con 9, so it is even older than Fran’s and
>probably even more unreliable.
>
>Any help anyone can give would be greatly appreciated. We’ll be flyering
>other conventions, too, but doing a direct mailing to known designers is
>probably going to reap the most benefits at this point.
>
>–Karen
>

Hi, guys –

We did the one for CC 21 – we’ll see if we can get the list off the old
computer.

P & S

At 12:04 PM 7/5/2004, you wrote:

>As most of you probably know, Ricky and I are running the Fashion Design
>Contest for CC-23.
>
>I really could use address lists of designers who have participated in the
>last two contests, in the hopes we can do a mailing to them to jump-start
>the contest. I don’t have the last two Folios within easy reach (they’re in
>the house…somewhere).
>
>Henry and Trudy, if you could contact the people on your committees who ran
>the Folio for you and see if they can get address lists to me, that would
>be GREAT!
>
>Fran Evans has supplied me with her address list of designers, but some of
>the addresses on it are known to be old and need to be verified. My own
>address list dates to Costume-Con 9, so it is even older than Fran’s and
>probably even more unreliable.
>
>Any help anyone can give would be greatly appreciated. We’ll be flyering
>other conventions, too, but doing a direct mailing to known designers is
>probably going to reap the most benefits at this point.
>
>–Karen
>
>
>
>
>View the Document: http://www.Costume-Con.org/procedure/runacc/
>Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>

“Those Who Fail To Learn History
Are Doomed to Repeat It;
Those Who Fail To Learn History Correctly —
Why They Are Simply Doomed.

Achemdro’hm
“The Illusion of Historical Fact”
— C.Y. 4971

Andromeda

Thanks!

I have a list of about 100 names from Fran Evans. Currently trying to
update / verify some of the addresses before doing a mailing. And I’m sure
there are names that should be on there that are not on there yet. (Her
list is several years old.)

–Karen

At 10:39 PM 7/5/2004 -0500, you wrote:

>Hi, guys –
>
>We did the one for CC 21 – we’ll see if we can get the list off the old
>computer.
>
>P & S

Thanks!

I’ll drop her an email.

–Karen

At 10:39 PM 7/5/2004 -0400, you wrote:

>Karen –
>
>Steve Swope and Karen Heim ran our Folio. Karen would probably be the best
>bet for the addresses, since she’s the one who mailed them all out.
>
>Trudy

I am forwarding this because I feel we should all go look at these links (I
did).

I can’t explain it, but the energy I “feel” in these photos (especially in
the second link) reminds me of the media cons I attended in the 70’s, the
Comic-Con masquerade when the con first started to get big in the 80’s, and
the big WorldCon masquerades of the 80’s. I’m especially impressed with the
“mecha” suits.

I don’t know how, but Costume-Con REALLY needs to court these kids. The
anime cons could now be the feeder system for us that the S/F cons are not.

Good re-creation costuming from media sources is still good costuming.

–Karen

>X-eGroups-Return:
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>List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:ICG-D-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com>
>Date: Mon, 5 Jul 2004 20:57:51 -0700
>Subject: [ICG-D] Anime Expo Masquerade Winners
>Reply-To: ICG-D@yahoogroups.com
>X-smtp1.pulsenet.com-MailScanner-Information: Please contact the ISP for
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>
>I didn’t go to this, but I looked at the winners just out of curiousity, and
>because it’s one of the bigger anime masquerades. I wish the pictures were
>better, as the Rose of Versailles group looks really REALLY neat..but I
>figured many of us might like some of the work that went into these
>costumes.
>
>http://www.fansview.com/2004/animeexpo/axcosp.htm
>
>Here’s some individuals of each group as they came off the stage. Some
>better pictures than on the winners’ page..
>
>http://www.fansview.com/2004/animeexpo/ax04c.html
>
>Overall, just very cool stuff to look at…and good reference for me, as I’m
>taking on the anime end of things next year…
>
>Dany
>-already has some of the material in fact..
>
>
>
>
>
>
>Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>

In a message dated 7/5/2004 10:50:14 PM Central Daylight Time,
costumrs@radiks.net writes:

> We did the one for CC 21 – we’ll see if we can get the list off the old
> computer.

Pierre & Sandy,
Don’t worry. I have the PreReg list on my computer and e-mailed it to
Karen.
Henry

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Bruce & Nora Mai wrote:

> What about “Costume enthusiast”?

Great phrase; I use it in some of my own copy.

andy

I can’t recall for certain, but I think I saw the term “enthusiast” on the “Threads” web-site, as well.

Charles

—– Original Message —–
From: Bruce & Nora Mai

What about “Costume enthusiast”?

Bruce

>

——————————————————————————
Yahoo! Groups Links

a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/runacc/

b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
runacc-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

>I’m excited! I like Elaine’s “Costumers of every skill level…” as well
>as Bruce and Nora’s “Costume Enthusiast.” The former readily works for the
>general press while the latter works for furry, anime, historical, and
>SF/F fen.

Dave Doering
CC23

And they have the added advantage of covering those who compete, those
who costume for other events, and those who like to look at costumes but
don’t make or wear them.

Cool!

Betsy

David Doering wrote:

>
> >I’m excited! I like Elaine’s “Costumers of every skill level…” as well
> >as Bruce and Nora’s “Costume Enthusiast.” The former readily works for
> the
> >general press while the latter works for furry, anime, historical, and
> >SF/F fen.
>
> Dave Doering
> CC23

—
—
Betsy R. Delaney
Web Mistress at large

************************************************************************
http://www.WebInvent.com/ * http://www.hawkeswood.com/
http://www.Costume-Con.org/ * http://www.sickpups.org/
http://www.SchoolWithoutWalls.org/
************************************************************************

—
—
Betsy R. Delaney
Web Mistress at large

************************************************************************
http://www.WebInvent.com/ * http://www.hawkeswood.com/
http://www.Costume-Con.org/ * http://www.sickpups.org/
http://www.SchoolWithoutWalls.org/
************************************************************************

At 12:10 AM 7/6/2004, you wrote:

>I am forwarding this because I feel we should all go look at these links (I
>did).
>
>I can’t explain it, but the energy I “feel” in these photos (especially in
>the second link) reminds me of the media cons I attended in the 70’s, the
>Comic-Con masquerade when the con first started to get big in the 80’s, and
>the big WorldCon masquerades of the 80’s. I’m especially impressed with the
>”mecha” suits.
>
>I don’t know how, but Costume-Con REALLY needs to court these kids. The
>anime cons could now be the feeder system for us that the S/F cons are not.
>
>Good re-creation costuming from media sources is still good costuming.

Oh, yes. The best of these could compete right at the top now. Some need
work, but they obviously have the energy and just need some skill building.
Perfect for a C-C. Unfortunately, we don’t have any of these cons near us.
(Des Moines is closest). Where we can, we should probably try to attend
some of these cons and promote C-C whether we’re anime fans or not.

Pierre

>–Karen
>
> >
> >I didn’t go to this, but I looked at the winners just out of curiousity, and
> >because it’s one of the bigger anime masquerades. I wish the pictures were
> >better, as the Rose of Versailles group looks really REALLY neat..but I
> >figured many of us might like some of the work that went into these
> >costumes.
> >
> >http://www.fansview.com/2004/animeexpo/axcosp.htm
> >
> >Here’s some individuals of each group as they came off the stage. Some
> >better pictures than on the winners’ page..
> >
> >http://www.fansview.com/2004/animeexpo/ax04c.html
> >
> >Overall, just very cool stuff to look at…and good reference for me, as I’m
> >taking on the anime end of things next year…
> >
> >Dany
> >-already has some of the material in fact..

“Those Who Fail To Learn History
Are Doomed to Repeat It;
Those Who Fail To Learn History Correctly —
Why They Are Simply Doomed.

Achemdro’hm
“The Illusion of Historical Fact”
— C.Y. 4971

Andromeda

Byron and I accidentally found ourselves at an anime con 2-3 years ago. We went down to NJ for a Sick Pups meeting, and when we walked into our hotel’s lobby it was full of young people in “strange” costumes. Since we were looking very mundane, and are no longer exactly young, we got some looks from the kids, and an apologetic look from the hotel desk clerk. When I asked “Is there an anime con here this weekend” and everyone obviously expected me to be disgusted, the whole atmosphere changed immediately when I loudly said, “Oh, NEAT!!”. I was quite struck with the quality of some of the costumes – there was one young lady who had the most wonderful set of etched lucite dragonfly wings that particularly struck my fancy because of the workmanship.

The real problem, for me, is that I don’t know anything about anime – I don’t know who the “characters” are, so the costumes have no reference point. My last contact was Astro Boy, and that was a LONG time ago. It wasn’t called anime back then, either. Some of our costume fans out there are at least somewhat into the anime scene. What would be a big help for those of us who feel that it looks interesting, but don’t know where to get started, would be some pointers on the right direction(s) to get started. Personally, I’m not very interested in cutesy Power Puff Girls or strange little Pokemon critters, but I’ve seen some books/comics at our local bookstore in the anime section that have illos that looked more to my taste – a more realistic style of illustration, rather that bizarre, juvenile or distorted body types. BTW, does “A Distant Soil” fall into this category, or is that just a fantasy comic?

So tell me, where should a total anime neo start?

Tina

—– Original Message —–
From: Pierre & Sandy Pettinger<mailto:costumrs@radiks.net>
To: runacc@yahoogroups.com<mailto:runacc@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, July 07, 2004 5:53 PM
Subject: Re: [runacc] Anime Expo Masquerade Winners

Oh, yes. The best of these could compete right at the top now. Some need
work, but they obviously have the energy and just need some skill building.
Perfect for a C-C. Unfortunately, we don’t have any of these cons near us.
(Des Moines is closest). Where we can, we should probably try to attend
some of these cons and promote C-C whether we’re anime fans or not.

Pierre

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

On Jul 8, 2004, at 4:38 AM, Christine Connell wrote:

> So tell me, where should a total anime neo start?

can I shift this over to ICG-D? it’s a bit far off-charter for RunACC…

—
andy trembley, Bitchy Design Queen – http://www.bovil.com/
San Jose, CA – ’72 R75/5 ’86 R100 (mine) – ’92 K75sa ’03 R1150R
(Kevin’s)
…remaining .sig trimmed for better message/.sig ratio

Andy —

Tina’s not on ICG-D.

Sorry,

Byron

—– Original Message —–
From: Andrew T Trembley<mailto:attrembl@bovil.com>
To: runacc@yahoogroups.com<mailto:runacc@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, July 08, 2004 7:11 PM
Subject: Re: [runacc] Anime Expo Masquerade Winners

On Jul 8, 2004, at 4:38 AM, Christine Connell wrote:
> So tell me, where should a total anime neo start?

can I shift this over to ICG-D? it’s a bit far off-charter for RunACC…

—
andy trembley, Bitchy Design Queen – http://www.bovil.com/<http://www.bovil.com/>
San Jose, CA – ’72 R75/5 ’86 R100 (mine) – ’92 K75sa ’03 R1150R
(Kevin’s)
…remaining .sig trimmed for better message/.sig ratio

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

On Jul 8, 2004, at 5:19 PM, Byron Connell wrote:

> Andy —
>
> Tina’s not on ICG-D.

‘k, it’s just as a list moderator myself I can’t in good conscience
respond to the post on this list.

—
andy trembley, Bitchy Design Queen – http://www.bovil.com/
San Jose, CA – ’72 R75/5 ’86 R100 (mine) – ’92 K75sa ’03 R1150R
(Kevin’s)
…remaining .sig trimmed for better message/.sig ratio

I think it’s fairly relevant here because we keep saying we have to get the
anime people interested in CCs and a number of us don’t have a clue where to
start. While we might have an interest in anime, we’ve never been to one of
their cons, and aren’t sure how to approach this “new” type of fandom. I’d
say we’re asking for how to get started because we really want to hook up
with the anime fans on their own turf.

Nora

—– Original Message —–
From: “Andrew T Trembley” <attrembl@bovil.com>
> ‘k, it’s just as a list moderator myself I can’t in good conscience
> respond to the post on this list.

And some of us did anime stuff “in the day” 15-20 years ago (when it was
still going by the un-PC label of “Japanimation”), but have NO idea what’s
current now.

–Karen

At 08:51 PM 7/8/2004 -0500, you wrote:

>I think it’s fairly relevant here because we keep saying we have to get the
>anime people interested in CCs and a number of us don’t have a clue where to
>start. While we might have an interest in anime, we’ve never been to one of
>their cons, and aren’t sure how to approach this “new” type of fandom. I’d
>say we’re asking for how to get started because we really want to hook up
>with the anime fans on their own turf.
>
>Nora
>—– Original Message —–
>From: “Andrew T Trembley” <attrembl@bovil.com>
> > ‘k, it’s just as a list moderator myself I can’t in good conscience
> > respond to the post on this list.
>
>
>
>
>View the Document: http://www.Costume-Con.org/procedure/runacc/
>Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>

‘k, so I had a second request…

On Jul 8, 2004, at 4:38 AM, Christine Connell wrote:
> The real problem, for me, is that I don’t know anything about anime –
> I don’t know who the “characters” are, so the costumes have no
> reference point. My last contact was Astro Boy, and that was a LONG
> time ago. It wasn’t called anime back then, either. Some of our
> costume fans out there are at least somewhat into the anime scene.
> What would be a big help for those of us who feel that it looks
> interesting, but don’t know where to get started, would be some
> pointers on the right direction(s) to get started.

“Anime,” not surprisingly, is from the French. Japanese picks up
loanwords like nobody’s business. The Japanese adopted it to refer to
animated TV series, video series (OAV “original animation video” is a
acronym you’ll see) and feature films.

The sheer volume of anime being produced will prevent you from ever
knowing all the characters. More than half of our (extensive) video
collection is anime, and we’ve barely scratched the surface.

> Personally, I’m not very interested in cutesy Power Puff Girls or
> strange little Pokemon critters, but I’ve seen some books/comics at
> our local bookstore in the anime section that have illos that looked
> more to my taste – a more realistic style of illustration, rather that
> bizarre, juvenile or distorted body types.

There is a great deal of variation in character designs and art styles.
Sometimes “chibi” (cute) character designs belie a much darker and
sophisticated story than you would expect. The original Japanese
version of “Sailor Moon” is a lot rougher than any American cartoon
directed at 12-year-olds would be (and the Americanized DiC version
ended up being).

While it is generally true that most anime is based on popular manga
(comic books) some anime features and series are based on video games
and some are original stories. “Vision of Escaflowne” was first a TV
series and “Tenchi Muyo” first appeared as an OAV; the manga followed.

A great deal of anime features teenagers as main characters in “coming
of age” stories. Not all, mind you, but it’s the most common formula.

Oh, a bit on terminology and classification:
Manga publishers break things down into market segments, and that’s how
manga is classified (not by genre). “Shounen manga” is manga marketed
to (teenage) boys. “Shoujo manga” is marketed to (teenage) girls. Those
are the largest categories, but there are more.

Niche markets sometimes do include genre. Pornographic comics for men
are “Ecchi manga” or “eromanga” and homoerotic comics for men are “gay
manga.” Male/male homoerotic comics for women and girls are “boys love
manga.” Go fig…

This can all get a bit confusing. Studio Clamp’s stylish, violent,
drenched in blood “X/1999” is shoujo manga because it appeared
originally in a shoujo manga magazine. Rumiko Takahashi’s romance and
relationship oriented martial arts farce is shounen manga because it
appeared in a shounen manga magazine.

Anime doesn’t have these distinctions, particularly televised anime.
All TV screens are the same.

> BTW, does “A Distant Soil” fall into this category, or is that just a
> fantasy comic?

ADS is very definitely a fantasy comic; it’s not Japanese, so it’s not
manga, and it’s a comic book so it’s not anime.

> So tell me, where should a total anime neo start?

You could start with the titles on AnimeOnDVD’s essential collection
list
http://www.animeondvd.com/discdata/essential/index.php
Not that I agree with all of their recommendations. I hated “Record of
Lodoss War” (6 1/2 hours of my life wasted, and not well). Don’t watch
“Excel Saga” until you’ve watched a lot of anime. It’s incredibly dense
“aniparo” (anime parody) and without a good grounding in anime, manga
and Japanese culture you’ll lose most of it. AnimeOnDVD is an excellent
resource, and I 90% trust the team’s reviews.

The works of Hayao Miyazaki are modern classics
http://www.nausicaa.net/miyazaki/

Osamu Tezuka is probably the biggest name ever in anime and manga.
You’ll recognize some of his work. You’ve seen it.
http://en.tezuka.co.jp/

Rumiko Takashi is “The Princess of Manga”. Her “Ranma 1/2,” “Inu
Yasha,” “Maison Ikoku” and “Lum” (“Urusei Yatsura” or “Those Annoying
Aliens”) are incredibly popular. Mind you, I never liked “Maison
Ikoku.” I adore the rest.
http://furinkan.com/takahashi/

Buy a copy of “The Anime Companion” and “Anime Essentials” by Gilles
Poitras
http://www.koyagi.com/index.html
Trust me. “The Anime Companion” is subtitled “What’s Japanese in
Japanese Animation” and it’s a great supporting work.

—
andy trembley, Bitchy Design Queen
http://www.irlm.org/ – mailto:webmaster@irlm.org
“Anybody who takes this seriously deserves to”
— Donna Barr

In a message dated 7/8/2004 7:31:22 PM Central Daylight Time,
attrembl@bovil.com writes:

> >Tina’s not on ICG-D.
>
> ‘k, it’s just as a list moderator myself I can’t in good conscience
> respond to the post on this list.

Andy,
E-mail Tina directly and cc it to the ICG-D if you think others would be
interested.
Henry

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

On Jul 8, 2004, at 7:43 PM, Ricky & Karen Dick wrote:

> And some of us did anime stuff “in the day” 15-20 years ago (when it
> was
> still going by the un-PC label of “Japanimation”), but have NO idea
> what’s
> current now.

What’s current? If you like dubbed versions, there is a lot on TV. I’ll
mark (*) the ones I particularly like. Unmarked indicates stuff I
have’t seen, or stuff that I don’t care about. There are no real
stinkers I’ve seen in this list.

Check out the following Cartoon Network websites:
http://www.toonami.com/
http://www.adultswim.com/

Toonami is showing
Dragonball GT
Gundam Seed
YuYu Hakusho *

The Adult Swim track includes
Big O
Blue Gender
Case Closed
Cowboy Bebop *
FLCL
InuYasha *
Kikaider
Lupin the 3rd * (a decades-old classic)
Reign: The Comquerer
Trigun *
Witch Hunter Robin
Wolf’s Rain

G4/TechTV runs a bunch of stuff in its “Anime Unleashed” track
http://www.g4techtv.com/show.aspx?show_key=44
including
Banner of the Stars *
Betterman
Crest of the Stars *
Dual
Geneshaft
Last Exile

STARZ! Action runs some anime, particularly on Saturdays.
http://www.starz.com/se/action/index.html

This is by no means a comprehensive listing of anime currently running
on TV here.

And, of course, there’s DVD. If you prefer subtitles to dubs, buy your
anime on DVD instead of watching it on cable. My favorite retailer is
probably The Right Stuf, Inc. in Des Moines.
http://www.rightstuf.com/

—
andy trembley, Bitchy Design Queen
http://www.irlm.org/ – mailto:webmaster@irlm.org
“Anybody who takes this seriously deserves to”
— Donna Barr

Have caught some InuYasha, and liked it. Cowboy Bebop didn’t make sense to
me, but maybe it is because I haven’t watched it from the beginning…?

Am a HUGE Lupin III fan from ‘way back…heading over to the website to see
when those are showing. 🙂 (One of the big pluses of Lupin III is the
jazz soundtrack music, LOL!)

–Karen

At 07:30 PM 7/9/2004 -0700, you wrote:

>What’s current? If you like dubbed versions, there is a lot on TV. I’ll
>mark (*) the ones I particularly like. Unmarked indicates stuff I
>have’t seen, or stuff that I don’t care about. There are no real
>stinkers I’ve seen in this list.

Thanks, Nora. Although I am personally interested in finding out more about anime/manga, it also seems to me that if “we” (non-anime- costume fans) start showing up at anime cons and touting “our” cons, but obviously not having a clue about what’s going on, we aren’t likely to make the connections with these (mostly) young people that we want to. Instead, given that many of them are in the adolescent mindset already, we are likely to come across as condescending old farts.

A lot of what they are doing is really great, but there’s also a lot that looks really embarrassing – at the anime con I mentioned, there were some truly great costumes, but there were also far too many pudgy (or just plain fat) kids in poorly made and inappropriate-to-body-type outfits. “But I want to dress like my favorite character.” Reminded me of early (well, early for me – we only started going to cons about 25 years ago) con costuming, except for the generous admixture of superior costumes, which were less often seen back then. At least some of these kids clearly already have the right mindset regarding re-creation, in terms of trying for perfection.

I’d much prefer to be able to say “Oh, that’s a great “whatever” costume” than “that’s a great costume – what is it?”

Tina (who always wants to “know” – should have been named Rikki Tikki Tavvi)

—– Original Message —–
From: Bruce & Nora Mai<mailto:casamai@sbcglobal.net>
To: runacc@yahoogroups.com<mailto:runacc@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, July 08, 2004 9:51 PM
Subject: Re: [runacc] Anime Expo Masquerade Winners

I think it’s fairly relevant here because we keep saying we have to get the
anime people interested in CCs and a number of us don’t have a clue where to
start. While we might have an interest in anime, we’ve never been to one of
their cons, and aren’t sure how to approach this “new” type of fandom. I’d
say we’re asking for how to get started because we really want to hook up
with the anime fans on their own turf.

Nora

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

That would include me. Probably the only time I was ahead of the curve. I
was watching various videos with an informal group back in the mid-’80s.

My tastes ran (and still do, when I look for it) to SF stories, often giant
robot stuff. The storytelling is a bit different now in that genre, and I
might not find it as interesting.
I’ve noticed that when I have collected videos (I have maybe a dozen titles
or so), I prefer one-shots rather than a TV series. Don’t know why,
precisely. Guess I can stand a story just for so long, where anime is
concerned. I’m presently converting those old tapes to DVD. Things like
“Iczer 1”, “Madox-01”, “Warriors of the Wind” (aka Nausicca in the Valley of
the Wind), “Laputa”, GAll Force, etc. Another of my favorites is “Black
Magic M-66”. Derivative, but good stuff. And the Bubble Gum Crisis
(armored babes meet “Bladerunner”) first 2 or 3 videos are pretty good.

I’d like to give a series or two a try again. Some of the concepts seem
pretty interesting. I want to check out “Last Exile” because it looks like
Miyazaki’s stuff. More recently, we’ve seen the last two Miyazakis
“Princess Mononoke” and “Spirited Away”. I also have “Ghost In the Shell”
and look forwared to the RV series coming soon.

We’re pretty much getting a mindset to attend the conventions in Iowa (maybe
CC24 and 25 should do a joint presentation?) and Chicago in the next couple
of years.

A few questions, please, Andy:

Our friends the Morrises say that you can just about go in any costume and
pretty much fit in at one of these things — that the kids just think you’re
doing something they haven’t seen. Would it be better to “walk the walk”
and do the “When in Rome” thing?

What is the hot anime genre presently?

Is there a prevalence of a particular tv show/video that a lot of people are
costuming from?

All of us on this list are “mature costumers”. If anyone has seen any of
these anime, then they know that the popular characters are young and thin
(as Karen mentioned). Preferring to costume to body-type, then, becomes
more problematic. Do you have any thoughts on what shows that have good
designs that we could wear?

Bruce

—– Original Message —–
From: “Ricky & Karen Dick” <castleb@pulsenet.com>
To: <runacc@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, July 08, 2004 9:43 PM
Subject: Re: [runacc] Anime Expo Masquerade Winners

> And some of us did anime stuff “in the day” 15-20 years ago (when it was
> still going by the un-PC label of “Japanimation”), but have NO idea what’s
> current now.
>
> –Karen
>
> At 08:51 PM 7/8/2004 -0500, you wrote:
> >I think it’s fairly relevant here because we keep saying we have to get
the
> >anime people interested in CCs and a number of us don’t have a clue where
to
> >start. While we might have an interest in anime, we’ve never been to one
of
> >their cons, and aren’t sure how to approach this “new” type of fandom.
I’d
> >say we’re asking for how to get started because we really want to hook up
> >with the anime fans on their own turf.
> >
> >Nora
> >—– Original Message —–
> >From: “Andrew T Trembley” <attrembl@bovil.com>
> > > ‘k, it’s just as a list moderator myself I can’t in good conscience
> > > respond to the post on this list.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >View the Document: http://www.Costume-Con.org/procedure/runacc/
> >Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
> View the Document: http://www.Costume-Con.org/procedure/runacc/
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>

At 07:44 AM 7/10/2004 -0400, you wrote:

>A lot of what they are doing is really great, but there’s also a lot that
>looks really embarrassing – at the anime con I mentioned, there were some
>truly great costumes, but there were also far too many pudgy (or just
>plain fat) kids in poorly made and inappropriate-to-body-type
>outfits. “But I want to dress like my favorite character.”

As was discussed months ago on the ICG-D (or maybe it was f-costume) list,
the motivation behind anime costuming is different from the motivation
behind S/F costuming.

The point of cosplay is to dress as your favorite character and re-enact
scenes from your favorite anime–awards are secondary or irrelevant, and so
is your actual physical resemblance to the character. So the whole
“costuming to body type” thing we do doesn’t necessarily apply in their
playground.

>Reminded me of early (well, early for me – we only started going to cons
>about 25 years ago) con costuming, except for the generous admixture of
>superior costumes, which were less often seen back then. At least some of
>these kids clearly already have the right mindset regarding re-creation,
>in terms of trying for perfection.

As in the early days of S/F costuming, best to find something positive
about every costume you see and compliment that vs. trying to lecture about
costuming to body type, especially on their home turf. At least they’re
interested in costume to begin with!

We also have to take into consideration that there are more large /
overweight kids today than there were 20 years ago (and even 20-30 years
ago, there were more “odd” body types in fandom than in the Real World,
with the possible exception of Southern California).

>I’d much prefer to be able to say “Oh, that’s a great “whatever” costume”
>than “that’s a great costume – what is it?”

Me, too, but there’s SO MUCH stuff out there that it’s nearly impossible to
know everything, not only in anime, but in S/F media recreations as well.
(I judged a Toronto Trek masquerade in the 90’s where somebody did an
obscure “Doctor Who” villain–I’d have been lost if they hadn’t supplied
photos of the original.

Recently, Marty Gear was a workmanship judge for a local Baltimore anime
convention. The participants loved it that their workmanship was being
recognized and awarded, and he even got a nice mention in one of the anime
magazines covering the convention.

–Karen

Tina –

You might try going up to them and saying “I love your costume. Please tell
me about your character”. Most enthusiasts will be only to happy to
explain. There may be a few who won’t respond, but my experience has been
that most are polite and quite willing to share the “gospel”. We did a show
at one of the anime cons here, and took the opportunity to attend some of
the costuming panels and invite those present to CC22. We explained that we
welcomed anyone who was interested in doing costumes, and that many people
who attended might not have had an opportunity to see cosplay before. The
folks we talked to seemed pleased that their work was appreciated and that
people outside their interest group had made an effort to contact them. I
don’t know that we got any attendees, but we certainly extended the hand.

One thing that might deter some kids from attending a CC is the cost. As
with the rest of us, one can only afford to attend so many conventions and I
suspect that their funds would mainly go to anime cons. I do think we should
keep trying though because a true costume lover will want to try other types
of things as well and we may pick them up down the road a bit.

Trudy

>From: “Christine Connell” <connell-t1@verizon.net>
>Reply-To: runacc@yahoogroups.com
>To: <runacc@yahoogroups.com>
>Subject: Re: [runacc] Anime Expo Masquerade Winners
>Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 07:44:11 -0400
>
>Thanks, Nora. Although I am personally interested in finding out more
>about anime/manga, it also seems to me that if “we” (non-anime- costume
>fans) start showing up at anime cons and touting “our” cons, but obviously
>not having a clue about what’s going on, we aren’t likely to make the
>connections with these (mostly) young people that we want to. Instead,
>given that many of them are in the adolescent mindset already, we are
>likely to come across as condescending old farts.
>
>A lot of what they are doing is really great, but there’s also a lot that
>looks really embarrassing – at the anime con I mentioned, there were some
>truly great costumes, but there were also far too many pudgy (or just plain
>fat) kids in poorly made and inappropriate-to-body-type outfits. “But I
>want to dress like my favorite character.” Reminded me of early (well,
>early for me – we only started going to cons about 25 years ago) con
>costuming, except for the generous admixture of superior costumes, which
>were less often seen back then. At least some of these kids clearly
>already have the right mindset regarding re-creation, in terms of trying
>for perfection.
>
>I’d much prefer to be able to say “Oh, that’s a great “whatever” costume”
>than “that’s a great costume – what is it?”
>
>Tina (who always wants to “know” – should have been named Rikki Tikki
>Tavvi)
> —– Original Message —–
> From: Bruce & Nora Mai<mailto:casamai@sbcglobal.net>
> To: runacc@yahoogroups.com<mailto:runacc@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Thursday, July 08, 2004 9:51 PM
> Subject: Re: [runacc] Anime Expo Masquerade Winners
>
>
> I think it’s fairly relevant here because we keep saying we have to get
>the
> anime people interested in CCs and a number of us don’t have a clue
>where to
> start. While we might have an interest in anime, we’ve never been to one
>of
> their cons, and aren’t sure how to approach this “new” type of fandom.
>I’d
> say we’re asking for how to get started because we really want to hook
>up
> with the anime fans on their own turf.
>
> Nora
>
>
>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Bruce & Nora Mai wrote:

> I’m presently converting those old tapes to DVD. Things like
> “Iczer 1”, “Madox-01”, “Warriors of the Wind” (aka Nausicca in the Valley of
> the Wind), “Laputa”, GAll Force, etc. Another of my favorites is “Black
> Magic M-66”. Derivative, but good stuff. And the Bubble Gum Crisis
> (armored babes meet “Bladerunner”) first 2 or 3 videos are pretty good.

Disney (through the efforts of John Lasseter at Pixar) has been
releasing new transfers of Miyazaki on DVD. “Laputa” (titled here
“Castle in the Sky”) is available on DVD, in a beautiful transfer.
“Warriors of the Wind” was a horible edit (21 minutes lost); “Nausicaa
in the Valley of the Wind” is due for DVD release in its original form
pretty soon. Don’t transfer your tapes, just spend the bucks and get the
DVDs.

“Bubblegum Crisis” was one of the first anime series (TV or OVA)
released on DVD.

> Our friends the Morrises say that you can just about go in any costume and
> pretty much fit in at one of these things — that the kids just think you’re
> doing something they haven’t seen. Would it be better to “walk the walk”
> and do the “When in Rome” thing?

Well…

Yes. If you walk in wearing an original costume, folks will just assume
that it’s something they haven’t seen. Fine for the halls, not for the
masquerade, though.

There’s also the option of traditional fan-wear for your first outing.

> What is the hot anime genre presently?

There isn’t one, really.

> Is there a prevalence of a particular tv show/video that a lot of people are
> costuming from?

Trigun has captured a lot of peoples fancies, but that’s a few years old.

> All of us on this list are “mature costumers”. If anyone has seen any of
> these anime, then they know that the popular characters are young and thin
> (as Karen mentioned). Preferring to costume to body-type, then, becomes
> more problematic. Do you have any thoughts on what shows that have good
> designs that we could wear?

Main characters are often young and thin. Supporting characters run the
gamut.

andy

We are currently getting the Anime Channel on our “On Demand” service with
the cable (when it works). We’re watching a lot of stuff, but unfortunately
much of it is mid series. Still fun though. I love Excel Saga, although I
wasn’t sure I was going to at first. I still think that Menchi is a cat,
though. I don’t care if they call her a dog. When we buy the DVDs, we
mostly get movies rather than series, but someone gave us a couple of Excels
and now we have to keep going.

Trudy

>From: Andrew T Trembley <attrembl@bovil.com>
>Reply-To: runacc@yahoogroups.com
>To: runacc@yahoogroups.com
>Subject: Re: [runacc] Anime Expo Masquerade Winners
>Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2004 19:30:39 -0700
>
>On Jul 8, 2004, at 7:43 PM, Ricky & Karen Dick wrote:
> > And some of us did anime stuff “in the day” 15-20 years ago (when it
> > was
> > still going by the un-PC label of “Japanimation”), but have NO idea
> > what’s
> > current now.
>
>What’s current? If you like dubbed versions, there is a lot on TV. I’ll
>mark (*) the ones I particularly like. Unmarked indicates stuff I
>have’t seen, or stuff that I don’t care about. There are no real
>stinkers I’ve seen in this list.
>
>Check out the following Cartoon Network websites:
>http://www.toonami.com/
>http://www.adultswim.com/
>
>Toonami is showing
> Dragonball GT
> Gundam Seed
> YuYu Hakusho *
>
>The Adult Swim track includes
> Big O
> Blue Gender
> Case Closed
> Cowboy Bebop *
> FLCL
> InuYasha *
> Kikaider
> Lupin the 3rd * (a decades-old classic)
> Reign: The Comquerer
> Trigun *
> Witch Hunter Robin
> Wolf’s Rain
>
>G4/TechTV runs a bunch of stuff in its “Anime Unleashed” track
>http://www.g4techtv.com/show.aspx?show_key=44
>including
> Banner of the Stars *
> Betterman
> Crest of the Stars *
> Dual
> Geneshaft
> Last Exile
>
>STARZ! Action runs some anime, particularly on Saturdays.
>http://www.starz.com/se/action/index.html
>
>This is by no means a comprehensive listing of anime currently running
>on TV here.
>
>And, of course, there’s DVD. If you prefer subtitles to dubs, buy your
>anime on DVD instead of watching it on cable. My favorite retailer is
>probably The Right Stuf, Inc. in Des Moines.
>http://www.rightstuf.com/
>
>–
>andy trembley, Bitchy Design Queen
>http://www.irlm.org/ – mailto:webmaster@irlm.org
>”Anybody who takes this seriously deserves to”
> — Donna Barr
>

Many of us here started with media re-creation costumes (one of the first
two costumes I made was a Classic STAR TREK uniform, LOL!).

I can’t tell you what switch gets thrown in someone’s head to make them
want to try making their own original stuff, but it happens. (I always
bounced back and forth between original and re-creation, and so did many of
my friends, when we were in our late teens and early 20’s.) We can only
hope that some of the anime costumers will do the same once they are
exposed to other forms of costuming.

–Karen

At 03:38 PM 7/10/2004 -0400, you wrote:

>I do think we should
>keep trying though because a true costume lover will want to try other types
>of things as well and we may pick them up down the road a bit.
>
>Trudy

Thanks, Andy.
Turns out we have the “Anime Companion”; dug it out and I’ll be cracking it
tomorrow.
It also amused me that some of your recomendations were things I’ve seen
from 15 years ago; are these considered ‘classics’ then?
We stopped by a local comic shop today that we haven’t been in for a while
and they’ve really expanded their manga, etc. They also sponsor a yearly
Otaku night at a local theatre so we’ll try to get to that. We explained
that we’re trying to hook back up with the anime community & cosplayers &
he’s offered to post flyers, etc. for us once they get moved to their new
space (this weekend as it turns out). He agreed that the cosplay community
here is small but apparently he sees most of them.
So, our first steps; we’ll let you know where it leads. Any further hints
will, of course, be welcome.

Nora

—– Original Message —–
From: “Andrew T Trembley” <attrembl@bovil.com>
> The works of Hayao Miyazaki are modern classics
> http://www.nausicaa.net/miyazaki/
>
> Osamu Tezuka is probably the biggest name ever in anime and manga.
> You’ll recognize some of his work. You’ve seen it.
> http://en.tezuka.co.jp/
>
> Rumiko Takashi is “The Princess of Manga”. Her “Ranma 1/2,” “Inu
> Yasha,” “Maison Ikoku” and “Lum” (“Urusei Yatsura” or “Those Annoying
> Aliens”) are incredibly popular. Mind you, I never liked “Maison
> Ikoku.” I adore the rest.
> http://furinkan.com/takahashi/
>
> Buy a copy of “The Anime Companion” and “Anime Essentials” by Gilles
> Poitras
> http://www.koyagi.com/index.html
> Trust me. “The Anime Companion” is subtitled “What’s Japanese in
> Japanese Animation” and it’s a great supporting work.

Yeah, thanks, Andy. We got our answers much more succintly here from you
than the meandering that would have immediately occured on the D list.

As usual, when we get a wild hair, we immediately like to do some research,
as Nora described previously. In addition, I sent out a few exploratory
e-mails to three anime cons expressing our interest in promoting CC25 and
doing some volunteer programming. We’ll see how that goes.

In the meantime, I came across the rather active Anime Central (Chicago, for
those of you not familar with it) forum Apparently, the con keeps in
contact with their attendees this way. Seems to be effective.

Anyway, I decided to do a little nosing around and immediately discovered
they have a whole board for Masquerade and Cosplay discussions.

http://www.acen.org/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=4

It was a good opportunity to “eavesdrop” and see what kinds of things they
were talking about. Not too surprisingly, some of the subjects parallel our
own topics on the lists. The participants are no doubt represent only a
small portion of the whole, as far as the cosplayers are concerned. Yet,
you can certainly tell the writers are young adults or proto-adults.

A few choice threads I am copyng here are instructive for our group’s
discussion and what to expect if we go to one of these:

For one thing, apparently they have what passes for a masquerade and a
seperate competition for the skits. The skit times have “strict” limits.
There were also other issues discussed, including entrants flaunting those
rules. In particular, there was a character called Vash that stripped. The
“Naked Lady” syndrome seems to have raised it’s head (only this time, it was
a guy).

http://www.acen.org/forums/showthread.php?t=3913

At a media con, there’s a greater danger of a lot of people doing the same
character for hall (and competition costumes). You’d think with all that’s
out there, there’d be more originality, but apparently not. Probably
indicative of the limited resources of the participants. So, in this
thread, they’re predicting what will be hot as a costume for next year…

http://www.acen.org/forums/showthread.php?t=4431

These next threads were of particular interest because they reveal more of
how these costumers think:

New hallway costume rules. This apparently caused quite an uproar. It
seems that this con has gotten so big –they were prediciting perhaps 800
attendees(!) — that the con staff made new rules that could seriously limt
the size and scope of many more elaborate costumes. The biggest issue was
the ‘ 6″ Rule’. The con is getting so popular and the hotel has expressed
concrns that the staff felt they had to act. Of course, how easy it was to
pollce this, I’m not sure….

http://www.acen.org/forums/showthread.php?t=2690

Another syndrome appeared in recent memory — the Adrian Butterfield
effect. It seems some people were “cosplaying” Nazis…..

http://www.acen.org/forums/showthread.php?t=4378

Finally, this seems to shed a bit more light on the whole question I posed
to Andy about “When in Rome”. We were a bit disturbed by some of the
opinions expressed on this one regarding going to an anime con in something
not anime related…

http://www.acen.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=2564

Food for thought.

Bruce

Hey, Bruce & Nora, thanks for the very helpful links.

At 12:19 AM 7/11/2004 -0500, you wrote:

>So, in this thread, they’re predicting what will be hot as a costume for
>next year…

I think it’s really sad that most of their members’ exposure to anime comes
from Cartoon Network and nothing else. Very limited pool of shows to draw
upon, IMHO, especially with the wealth of DVDs out there today. Can’t
afford to buy ’em? Many rental places now have very respectable anime
sections.

Some of the “classics”:

From the 60’s:
Astro Boy (aka Tetsuan Atom–updated version airing on network TV on
Saturday mornings)
8th Man (aka Tobor the 8th Man–I think an updated version just got remade)
Marine Boy
Prince Planet
Amazing Three (aka Wonder Three)
Kimba, the White Lion (aka Jungle Emperor Leo)

From the 70’s:
StarBlazers (aka Space Cruiser Yamato)
Battle for the Planets (aka Gatchaman–far more violence in its original form)
Lupin the 3rd (aka Lupin III–very adult adventures of a James Bond/Jewel
thief type character)
Captain Harlock (aka Cosmic Corsair Captain Harlock)
Starzinger (my memory is hazy on the Americanized name, but was packaged
with Voltron and other shows as an Adventure 5-pack)
Galaxy Express 999 (space-going train)
Queen of 1000 Years
(Harlock, GE 999, and Queen of 1000 Years all take place in the same
universe, so you’d see some characters on all 3 shows. Also Queen Emeraldis.)

From the 80’s
Robotech (combining the three shows Macross, Southern Cross, and Orguss–I
never saw the Orguss phase)
Dirty Pair (girls in skimpy costumes with big guns and explosives)
Bubblegum Crisis
Gundam
Akira (saw it and didn’t like it, but it had a HUGE following)

I know I’m forgetting stuff. I used to live, eat, and breathe this stuff,
and in 1990 it just stopped for me when I moved to the East Coast. Now
trying so hard to collect my favorites (Astro Boy just celebrated his 40th
anniversary!) that there’s no time to see the new stuff, except the odds
and ends I catch on Cartoon Channel and Sci-Fi Channel (finally got to see
Vampire Hunter D).

The one movie I always wanted to see and didn’t was “Crusher Joe,” who was
billed as a Han Solo / space mercenary sort of character (definitely aimed
at an adult audience).

>The biggest issue was the ‘ 6″ Rule’.

There’s going to be a lotta unhappy Giant Robots and Winged characters, LOL!

>Another syndrome appeared in recent memory — the Adrian Butterfield
>effect. It seems some people were “cosplaying” Nazis…..

This has been an ongoing issue for the last 30 years (and it didn’t start
with Adrian). I have photos from the early 70’s of friends who wore Nazi
uniforms to a TREK convention, entered the masquerade, and billed
themselves as being from the STAR TREK episode “Patterns of Force.” The
photos show them menacing another masquerade entrant, who was a belly
dancer from the episode with Jack the Ripper. I also had friends (with real
Tommy guns!) who dressed as characters from “A Piece of the Action.”

If we start deciding some costumes are acceptable and some are not, where
do we draw the line?
Aside from the obvious nudity in pubic areas of the hotel and live steel /
real weapons.

>Finally, this seems to shed a bit more light on the whole question I posed
>to Andy about “When in Rome”. We were a bit disturbed by some of the
>opinions expressed on this one regarding going to an anime con in something
>not anime related…

Well *sigh* it IS an ANIME con. I wish I wish I still fit into some of my
old costumes from the 80’s. But they are all long gone / sold off to
collectors.

If you go to the San Diego Comic-Con and enter original costumes in the
masquerade, don’t expect to win anything (unless you are Brinke Stephens
and do a really cool dance routine, LOL!).

We went to Toronto Trek in the mid-90’s and were *thrilled* to meet two of
the actors from the vampire cop show, FOREVER KNIGHT (shot locally in
Toronto). Other attendees were grousing because they “weren’t from STAR
TREK, so they don’t belong here.” And the Toronto Trek masquerade audience
also had trouble coping with non-media costumes (although there was more
than just Trek entered–we also saw very good entries from Doctor Who and
Babylon 5, among others).

So, we need to cut the anime folk some slack here. It *is* their territory.
If I were going to an anime con, I’d dig out my “Robot Power” Astro Boy
t-shirt, or try to find something simple to make to fit in. Many of the
series (Lupin III) feature 20th-century clothes, and many of the background
characters in other series are wearing traditional ethnic garments (here’s
the excuse to break out that Folkwear pattern and make a kimono, or
cheongsam, or hapi / haori). There are non-perfect / non-slender
characters–you just have to deal with being the older advisor or the comic
sidekick or whatever. Some friends once had a “Starzinger” costume group in
planning (science fiction themed retelling of “The Monkey King,” as many of
us saw in the 60’s as “Alakazam the Great”). Starzinger is the typical
slender brunette hero guy, and the Princess he is guarding looks like
Barbie (all blonde and pink). I was going to make Princess’ matronly
advisor, who was essentially wearing white bellbottoms, a white lab coat,
and funky green earrings. Not a stretch, but an easy “gateway” costume and
a way to beef up the group.

Maybe all of us need to rent a few videos and see what’s out there. This
can be like the SCA, where you can be a peasant and still go to the events
without much capital outlay.

But, of course, I’ve loved this genre since I was 9 or 10 years old and
just haven’t kept up with it in the last decade, so it’s not a stretch to
eturn to my roots.

–Karen

—– Original Message —–
From: “Ricky & Karen Dick” <castleb@pulsenet.com>
Subject: Re: [runacc] Looking into the minds of Cosplayers

> Hey, Bruce & Nora, thanks for the very helpful links.

No problemo. 🙂

>
> I think it’s really sad that most of their members’ exposure to anime
comes
> from Cartoon Network and nothing else. Very limited pool of shows to draw
> upon, IMHO, especially with the wealth of DVDs out there today. Can’t
> afford to buy ’em? Many rental places now have very respectable anime
> sections.

Yeah, although when we triedd to find some, they were pretty hard ot come
by. There are some Asian stores in our area, but they are stocking Chinese
videos, not Japanese.

>
> From the 80’s

> Akira (saw it and didn’t like it, but it had a HUGE following)

Yeah, it was neat to look at, but I thought it was long. Apparently fans
don’t think so. (shrug)

(finally got to see Vampire Hunter D).

Oh, yeah! How could I forget that one! Yeah, that’s one of our favorites,
and we just recently rented the sequel. Not bad.
>
> The one movie I always wanted to see and didn’t was “Crusher Joe,” who was
> billed as a Han Solo / space mercenary sort of character (definitely aimed
> at an adult audience).

Yeah, more or less.

>
> >The biggest issue was the ‘ 6″ Rule’.
>
> There’s going to be a lotta unhappy Giant Robots and Winged characters,
LOL!

So I hear. Since the con happened so recently, I’m not sure what the
fallout was, but I notieced in the photos there were no mecha costumes. Too
bad, since I’d really like to see those up close.
>
> >Another syndrome appeared in recent memory — the Adrian Butterfield
> >effect. It seems some people were “cosplaying” Nazis…..
>
> This has been an ongoing issue for the last 30 years (and it didn’t start
> with Adrian). I have photos from the early 70’s of friends who wore Nazi
> uniforms to a TREK convention, entered the masquerade, and billed
> themselves as being from the STAR TREK episode “Patterns of Force.” The
> photos show them menacing another masquerade entrant, who was a belly
> dancer from the episode with Jack the Ripper. I also had friends (with
real
> Tommy guns!) who dressed as characters from “A Piece of the Action.”

Ah. Interesting. Didn’t know that, but not surprising, I suppose.

>
> If we start deciding some costumes are acceptable and some are not, where
> do we draw the line?
> Aside from the obvious nudity in pubic areas of the hotel and live steel /
> real weapons.

Well, like they said, it was a matter of the crowds. With 8000 (not 800, as
I erroneously posted LATE last night), I can see the problems. With a high
factor of people costuming with bits that extend off their bodies and being
a bit over-enthusiastic/oblivious/lacking a whole lot of common sense,
someone’s bound to get an eye poked out. There was one story about someone
in Pocky cardboard box costume (apparently, there’s at least one every year,
by the sound of it) that took out people, tables and whatever else they
didn’t see with their limited vision.

The arguement was made to move the con, but the counter arguement was that
it would require moving the con downtown and would cost more as a result.
The spin by one of the staffers was proposing the costumers should accept
the rule as a “challenge”, rather than a limitation.

>
> >Finally, this seems to shed a bit more light on the whole question I
posed
> >to Andy about “When in Rome”. We were a bit disturbed by some of the
> >opinions expressed on this one regarding going to an anime con in
something
> >not anime related…
>
> Well *sigh* it IS an ANIME con. I wish I wish I still fit into some of my
> old costumes from the 80’s. But they are all long gone / sold off to
> collectors.
>
> If you go to the San Diego Comic-Con and enter original costumes in the
> masquerade, don’t expect to win anything (unless you are Brinke Stephens
> and do a really cool dance routine, LOL!).

Actually, if you do someting original within the context of a media
character, you can be awarded. A young female did some sort of backless
Amidala number and won 2 – 3 prizes. Of course, it didn’t hurt that she was
pretty….

>
> So, we need to cut the anime folk some slack here. It *is* their
territory.
> If I were going to an anime con, I’d dig out my “Robot Power” Astro Boy
> t-shirt, or try to find something simple to make to fit in. Many of the
> series (Lupin III) feature 20th-century clothes, and many of the
background
> characters in other series are wearing traditional ethnic garments (here’s
> the excuse to break out that Folkwear pattern and make a kimono, or
> cheongsam, or hapi / haori). There are non-perfect / non-slender
> characters–you just have to deal with being the older advisor or the
comic
> sidekick or whatever.

Yeah, that appears to be the case. I think the novelty alone of a older
costumer playing on their turf with a recognizable costume is going to get
you some props, given the demographics of at least this con.

Bruce

Sorry that the last post was so long, and kinda off topic for runacc. As
one of the moderators on this list, I should know better.

“Starzinger’s” Americanized name was “Spaceketeers” (pronounced like
Mouseketeers or Musketeers), but we found it heinous and pronounced it, in
our best hillbilly accent, as “Space Keaters” (as in rhyming with heaters
or skeeters). Terrible name, interesting show.

Thanks to buying a whole lotta Anime albums in the 70’s, I know theme songs
from anime shows I never saw (such as “Cyborg 009”).

Speaking of Cyborg 009, the cyborgs appear to come in all shapes and sizes,
and wear simple red double-breasted uniforms with brass buttons that would
be easy to make. Just saw the DVD in my local Suncoast video store. That
would be an easy “entry level” hall costume, too.

>Yeah, although when we triedd to find some, they were pretty hard ot come
>by. There are some Asian stores in our area, but they are stocking Chinese
>videos, not Japanese.

I assume you’re having trouble finding rentals…? I think it was our local
Blockbuster that had an appeciable section. In San Jose, it was a large
hobby shop that first started carrying Anime videos for sale or rental.

Our local Suncoast store had a HUGE anime DVD section (plus manga books,
pocky candy, anime magazines, etc.) for sale.

>Re Vampire Hunter D] Oh, yeah! How could I forget that one! Yeah, that’s
>one of our favorites,
>and we just recently rented the sequel. Not bad.

Kathryn and Duane Elms had a gorgeous art book of costumes from the
show–would make great re-creation stuff.

>Ah. Interesting. Didn’t know that, but not surprising, I suppose.

It’s only fair to mention that the costumers in Nazi uniforms and gangster
stuff were avid gun collectors, military history buffs, and addictively
played board war games like “Risk” and “War In The East.” They also made
killer Imperial Uniforms from STAR WARS. One of them even bore a
more-than-passing resemblance to Grand Moff Tarkin. In the case of the
STAR WARS repros, the guns were modified replicas, not the real thing. 🙂

BTW, I quite understand the “no weapons” rule at most cons, having been at
the Los Angeles S/F convention where a Logan’s Run “sandman” was nearly
blown away by a SWAT team for drawing down on a “runner” with a
realistic-looking weapon. (This was on public streets surrounding an
airport-area hotel.) Convention staff got real anal about “peace-bonding”
or confiscating weaponry after that, including obviously balsa wood STAR
TREK pistol phasers. Part of this is the fault of S/F movies of the period
(notably STAR WARS) for using modified real guns (mauser, target pistols,
etc.) as props in their movies, so the fans faithfully copied them.

>Well, like they said, it was a matter of the crowds. With 8000 (not 800, as
>I erroneously posted LATE last night), I can see the problems. With a high
>factor of people costuming with bits that extend off their bodies and being
>a bit over-enthusiastic/oblivious/lacking a whole lot of common sense,
>someone’s bound to get an eye poked out. There was one story about someone
>in Pocky cardboard box costume (apparently, there’s at least one every year,
>by the sound of it) that took out people, tables and whatever else they
>didn’t see with their limited vision.

I’ve attended several conventions over 10,000 people, but I guess the
extensions off the body were not an issue in that era, as there were very
few costumes trying to do wings, etc. as hall costumes. The masquerade is
something else, and should not be restricted.

I think you may be right about the young, enthusiatic fans / lack of sense
issue. In may day, it was the Logan’s Run fans, who were typically under 21
and conducted “runs” in places where they were a danger to themselves and
the older fen (and mundanes!) they occasionally plowed over.

Sounds like they need a bigger venue, or areas where BIG costumes are
permitted or restricted (but not banned completely).

>Actually, if you do someting original within the context of a media
>character, you can be awarded. A young female did some sort of backless
>Amidala number and won 2 – 3 prizes. Of course, it didn’t hurt that she was
>pretty….

People did variants of Princess Leia in the 70’s and 80’s and competed them
(notably Carol Salemi’s dress and full circle cape with reflective CD’s all
over it made for ConStellation in 1983), so I think variants are acceptable
to S/F fans.

I made (but just wore in the halls) several uniform variants derived from
StarBlazers, including a female “Black Tiger” fighter pilot (females were
NEVER shown as fighter pilots on the series). These were recognizable as
being from that universe, and I got lots of photos taken by visiting
Japanese fans. Don’t know how this would go over 20 years later, or whether
it would be considered “inaccurate” by other fans.

>I think the novelty alone of a older
>costumer playing on their turf with a recognizable costume is going to get
>you some props, given the demographics of at least this con.

I wonder if older anime fans just don’t bother with costumes because of the
body type thing.
Heck, the guy who organized the first anime club in Los Angeles (Fred
Patton of LASFS) was probably in his 50’s when he did so (and was the
stereotypical “dumpy” male fannish body type, no offense intended).

Most anime seems intended for kids and teens. I know the adult Japanese
fans I talked to in the 80’s were amazed that people in their mid-20’s were
following Space Cruiser Yamato, Gatchaman, and Macross, which to them were
shows intended for a younger audience.

It’s not that I lost my love of anime as a middle-aged adult. I just don’t
have the corporate income to enable me to follow the conventions and buy
the latest and greatest on DVD to stay up with the genre. We’ve been
talking about trying to go to some of the local anime and S/F cons within a
day’s drive (maybe only for one day each), to try to connect with
Pittsburgh / Cleveland / Columbus fandom preparatory to bidding for CC-30.
Plus we have a very active local beading group (of which Denice Girardeau
and Susie Garcia are prominent members), and we’re going to see if their
club will organize a strong track of beading-related programming for us.

Guess I should bring a small photo album of my anime costume from the 70’s
and 80’s that I can show to younger fen if I ever go to an anime convention.

–Karen

I could’ve sworn that I was younger that 18 when I first started watching Astro Boy! There wasn’t much of anything way back then that could have been considered SF, unless you count Duck Dodgers and Marvin the Martian.

Tina

—– Original Message —–
From: Ricky & Karen Dick<mailto:castleb@pulsenet.com>
To: runacc@yahoogroups.com<mailto:runacc@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, July 11, 2004 2:31 AM
Subject: Re: [runacc] Looking into the minds of Cosplayers
<snip>
I know I’m forgetting stuff. I used to live, eat, and breathe this stuff,
and in 1990 it just stopped for me when I moved to the East Coast. Now
trying so hard to collect my favorites (Astro Boy just celebrated his 40th
anniversary!) that there’s no time to see the new stuff, except the odds
and ends I catch on Cartoon Channel and Sci-Fi Channel (finally got to see
Vampire Hunter D).

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Tina–

CYE.

Anybody else who wants to discuss this, feel free to contact me off-list,
but we are getting ‘way off topic.

–Karen

At 07:18 PM 7/11/2004 -0400, you wrote:

>I could’ve sworn that I was younger that 18 when I first started watching
>Astro Boy! There wasn’t much of anything way back then that could have
>been considered SF, unless you count Duck Dodgers and Marvin the Martian.
>
>Tina

Sorry if this rambles a bit, but there’s been so much to respond to while I
was in Vegas for a week, and I’m still recovering.

When I first attend the local Anime convention, I didn’t get an anime
costume finished, so I wore something I had which had an anime look to it
(military uniform, big cape). I had my picture taken more in that non-anime
costume than in the anime costumes that I have done since. Many people came
up and asked, “Are you from _______?” At first, I would reply, “No, it’s
just something I made up.” They would always get a puzzled look as if they
didn’t understand doing something original, then say, “well, it’s really
cool.” After a while, I got tired of explaining, so I’d just tell them that
whatever they guessed was correct. If they didn’t have a guess, I’d just
tell them someone else’s guess. There is so much anime that it’s hard to
know them all and there are strong similarities between many of them. If
they don’t recognize which anime your costume is from, they’ll assume it’s
something they haven’t seen before. Even if you just wear an anime t-shirt,
you’ll fit in at an anime convention, granted the median age demographic is
very low.

Body type and even gender is not an issue in cosplaying, as the point is to
be your character, regardless of what one looks like. I every manner of
size, shape and gender dressed as Sailor Moon. Crossplaying
(cross-dressing) is very popular particularly with young girls dressing as
their favorite male characters. I even know some girls who will only
cosplay male characters.

Asian and Asian-inspired traditional costumes are also popular at Anime
conventions, some even has special categories for them in the costume
contest. Many anime characters also wear plain street clothes. Many
conventions have cracked down on allowing anyone just wearing street clothes
to enter the costume contest.

Overall I don’t feel that CC will appeal to most cosplayers, as they cosplay
because it’s the in thing to do, not because they have an interest in
costuming. Also, even though costuming skills are somewhat universal, an
Anime/Asian specific track would be more more appealing to cosplayers than
general costuming classes. A panel on making kitty ears (seen in many
anime) would be much more enticing to most cosplayers than something more
generalized like Hats and Headdresses.

I have talked to members of the local cosplay club a lot about CC23. I even
crossposted the panel list from CC22 to the mailing list. The few people
that I have interested resulted from showing a CC video during lunch at a
sewing workshop that the group had. Cosplayers will to any anime convention
that the can convince their parents to send them to; however, convincing
them to attend a non-anime convention is an uphill battle.

I have convinced a number of local cosplayers to attend and enter the
Masquerade at MileHiCon which I run. Overall, they have enjoyed the
opportunity to talk with the judges in the Green Room and feel that the
judging is much fairer. I always hear them recommend MileHi to their
friends. The last couple of years, I have had nearly equal numbers of Anime
and SF entries.

There is a large amount of discontent with local cosplayers over the judging
system at the local anime con. Judges are always guests and are judged on a
10 point scale. The numbers are totaled for a 1st, 2nd and 3rd place, then
each judge gets a Judges Choice, there is also an Audience Favorite. There
have been years when logical choices have won and years when the winners
just make you wonder why. Also, many times, one or two entries will take
several awards each. The greatest discontent is when a group of cute kids
takes top honors and several judges choice. Judges are most likely to make
a selection for their choice of an entry which is from something which they
have worked on.

In most recent years, the popular costumes have been from Inu Yasha. A few
years ago, Sailor Moon was very popular. It is speculated that Sailor Moon
will make a comeback at this years con. The best source for pictures of
what’s hot in the cosplay world is to check the website of Kevin Lillard, “A
Fan’s View”. He travels to anime conventions around the world, nearly every
weekend of the year, photographing cosplayers and probably has the most
extensive photo archive of cosplayers in the world. I try to check the
major cons after they happen.

Michael

On Jul 11, 2004, at 10:34 AM, Ricky & Karen Dick wrote:

> I assume you’re having trouble finding rentals…?

One word: Netflix

> It’s only fair to mention that the costumers in Nazi uniforms and
> gangster
> stuff were avid gun collectors, military history buffs, and addictively
> played board war games like “Risk” and “War In The East.” They also
> made
> killer Imperial Uniforms from STAR WARS. One of them even bore a
> more-than-passing resemblance to Grand Moff Tarkin. In the case of the
> STAR WARS repros, the guns were modified replicas, not the real thing.
> 🙂

There’s actually some precedent for Nazi uniforms in an anime/manga
masquerade. Osamu TEZUKA (of AstroBoy fame) did a manga series “Adolf:
The Half Aryan” which I can’t even begin to describe. It’s about
racism, Nazism, and the small underground Japanese pacifist movement
during World War II.

> I made (but just wore in the halls) several uniform variants derived
> from
> StarBlazers, including a female “Black Tiger” fighter pilot (females
> were
> NEVER shown as fighter pilots on the series). These were recognizable
> as
> being from that universe, and I got lots of photos taken by visiting
> Japanese fans. Don’t know how this would go over 20 years later, or
> whether
> it would be considered “inaccurate” by other fans.

Fanfic is a big thing in anime circles, so original designs derived
from popular works are generally also considered kosher.

> Most anime seems intended for kids and teens. I know the adult Japanese
> fans I talked to in the 80’s were amazed that people in their mid-20’s
> were
> following Space Cruiser Yamato, Gatchaman, and Macross, which to them
> were
> shows intended for a younger audience.

Strange aspect of Japanese culture, actually.

Part of it is that the anime in question is directed at teens and
younger. Not all, though. It’s perfectly fine to enjoy anime and manga,
but being a “fan” is something adults don’t do. If you don’t give up
being a fan, going to conventions and such, you’ll be branded an
“otaku” which **isn’t** a compliment. “Otaku” is Japanese for
“obsessive” (roughly) and puts you outside of mainstream society (a big
deal in Japan).

—
Andy Trembley, Bull-in-Drag
The Bovine Illuminati (It’s the Cows, Inc.)
http://www.bovil.com/
Moo!

On Jul 11, 2004, at 8:43 AM, Bruce & Nora Mai wrote:

> From: “Ricky & Karen Dick” <castleb@pulsenet.com>
>> Akira (saw it and didn’t like it, but it had a HUGE following)
>
> Yeah, it was neat to look at, but I thought it was long. Apparently
> fans
> don’t think so. (shrug)

It’s actually not terribly coherent, either. Captivating, though…

The manga is an epic of 6 volumes.

—
andy trembley, Bitchy Design Queen – http://www.bovil.com/
San Jose, CA – ’72 R75/5 ’86 R100 (mine) – ’92 K75sa ’03 R1150R
(Kevin’s)
“It’s not pink, it’s peach-colored. Pink is tacky.”
–Manfred Pfirsich Marie Rommel

2nd most important safety device on my bike: the one beneath my right
hand
Most important safety device on my bike: the one inside my helmet

On Jul 10, 2004, at 11:31 PM, Ricky & Karen Dick wrote:

> From the 80’s
> Robotech (combining the three shows Macross, Southern Cross, and
> Orguss–I
> never saw the Orguss phase)

Super Dimesion Fortress Macross, Super Dimension Cavalry Southern Cross
and Genesis Climber Mospaeda, actually. Badly edited and rewritten to
create Robotech.

Got the restored edition of SDF Macross a year or two ago, and it was
really cool. Makes a lot more sense. Just got Mospaeda on disc, haven’t
started watching it yet.

—
andy trembley, Bitchy Design Queen – http://www.bovil.com/
San Jose, CA – ’72 R75/5 ’86 R100 (mine) – ’92 K75sa ’03 R1150R
(Kevin’s)
…remaining .sig trimmed for better message/.sig ratio

Chronicles of the “workmanship” judging disaster
http://forums.cosplay.com/showthread.php?t=38702

And the whole Cosplay.com Anime Expo forum area for more…
http://forums.cosplay.com/forumdisplay.php?f=11

—
andy trembley, Bitchy Design Queen – http://www.bovil.com/
San Jose, CA – ’72 R75/5 ’86 R100 (mine) – ’92 K75sa ’03 R1150R
(Kevin’s)
…remaining .sig trimmed for better message/.sig ratio

—– Original Message —–
From: “Bruno” <bruno@soulmasque.com>
Subject: Re: [runacc] Looking into the minds of Cosplayers

Lots of good info, there, Mike. On the surface, this doesn’t sound very
incouraging, but on the other hadn, it sounds like you made a few inroads.
We’ve stated all along that we would only expect about 10% to show interest,
but that’s still a potential sizable number of people.

From wht you’ve said, I think we could tailor panels to the interest of the
attendees. I’d bet a panel on traditional Japanese costume construction
might draw some people. I think one thing I’d probably wear there is one
or two of my hantens I wear regularly when the weather’s appropriate.

Andy’s comments about possible age discrimination are a bit disconcerting,
though…. What about the people who run the cons? They can’t be pups.

Bruce

There are older (non-teenage) people involved with Anime conventions and
Cosplaying. There are parents who attend with their kids and adults who are
there of their own interests. However, if you look through any of the
pictures at A Fan’s View http://www.afansview.com you will see that the
majority are very young. I know high school kids locally who go to cons on
their own, both locally and out of state.

I do not feel that overall, there would be any age discrimination from the
younger crowd if they felt that you were cool with what they were doing or
even participating. I’m sure that many of them have parents who do not
approve of what they are doing and to have another adult criticize them at a
con, I’m sure, would set them off.

Michael

—– Original Message —–
From: “Bruce & Nora Mai” <casamai@sbcglobal.net>
To: <runacc@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, July 12, 2004 8:55 PM
Subject: Re: [runacc] Looking into the minds of Cosplayers

>
> Andy’s comments about possible age discrimination are a bit disconcerting,
> though…. What about the people who run the cons? They can’t be pups.
>
> Bruce

I think that the best way to promote CC to Cosplayers or anyone who’s never
been is to show them the types of things that go on at CC, rather than to
just tell them. I’ve seen more interest generated by people seeing
masquerade videos from CC than from just talking about them. It would be
nice to have a CC promo video, showing clips of all different things at CC;
masquerades, contests, socials, people in the halls, different panels. I
think that showing it in conjunction with a panel discussing CC would be the
best means to attract and interest people who have never been to CC.

The big Anime conventions in the Midwest that people from here travel to are
ACEN (Anime Central) and Anime Iowa. ACEN was in May and I think Anime Iowa
is in August.

I also emailed Kevin Lillard who run A Fan’s View and probably has the most
extensive photo collection of cosplayers, and he has added CC23 to his list
of “Other Conventions of Interest”.

—– Original Message —–
> Lots of good info, there, Mike. On the surface, this doesn’t sound very
> incouraging, but on the other hadn, it sounds like you made a few inroads.
> We’ve stated all along that we would only expect about 10% to show
interest,
> but that’s still a potential sizable number of people.
>
> From wht you’ve said, I think we could tailor panels to the interest of
the
> attendees. I’d bet a panel on traditional Japanese costume construction
> might draw some people. I think one thing I’d probably wear there is
one
> or two of my hantens I wear regularly when the weather’s appropriate.

Ok! I’m on a roll. Getting caught back up on things after a week in Vegas.

Here are some of the challenges I have experienced promoting CC in a non-CC
familiar area (Denver, CO).

I started my big CC promotion push at the local media con StarFest in
mid-April. This was 2 weeks before the dates for CC next year. I made big
posters of the flyers and lots of flyers. I had many people look at the
flyer and say, “I’d love to go, but I can’t get the time off that soon. If
only I’d known sooner.” After a while I finally figured out that they
thought it was this year, in two weeks. Then I started telling people that
it was next year. I think that people who are not used to traveling to cons
or planning to attend a con more than a year out, just don’t grasp the
concept of doing so. I asked at work if I could put in for vacation for CC
next year and was told that it was too soon. Many people just don’t plan
things that far out. I feel that the best time to begin promoting CC
locally would be 6-9 months out. You can start earlier, but I would not put
a lot of effort into a big local push until 6-9 months out.

I’ve also had a number of people tell me that Salt Lake City (9 hours from
Denver) is too far to go for a con.

The biggest challenge to promoting CC23 in Denver is that next year, due to
the addition of Star Wars Celebration 3 in April, the local media con moved
it’s weekend to avoid conflicting with SWC3 and is now the same weekend at
CC23. I am having a very difficult time convincing people to skip the media
con for a year. It is the biggest convention in Denver at 3-5000 people.
Even though people complain every year about how the costume contest is run,
they still aren’t willing to give up seeing the media guests to try
something different for a year. This convention (StarFest) is also a big
draw for people from Salt Lake City, so it may even be a challenge to get
SLC local media fans to attend CC.

Michael

Don’t be so sure of that. A BUNCH of people got major con-running experience while in their teens.

Byron

—– Original Message —–
From: Bruce & Nora Mai<mailto:casamai@sbcglobal.net>
To: runacc@yahoogroups.com<mailto:runacc@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, July 12, 2004 10:55 PM
Subject: Re: [runacc] Looking into the minds of Cosplayers

—– Original Message —–
From: “Bruno” <bruno@soulmasque.com<mailto:bruno@soulmasque.com>>
Subject: Re: [runacc] Looking into the minds of Cosplayers

What about the people who run the cons? They can’t be pups.

Bruce

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Back to the original discussion which was promotion of CCs via a joint flyer
(not promoting the Folio). Granted promoting the Folio can generate some
interest in CC (provided the CC is mentioned sufficiently in the Folio
materials) but that’s not my point.

Henry: Yeah, it’s pretty bare bones but it’s designed for insertion of
various information as the sites change, it could be used repeatedly with
very little change from year to year. I also wanted to get an idea out there
quickly and didn’t really have time to research everyone’s info. Given the
astounding lack of interest in it, I’m glad I didn’t put more effort into
it.

Andy: It’s very nice that you’re including everyone’s info on your flyers
(and pretty much the same idea) but my idea was to more evenly distribute
the responsibilty and cost of a multi-flyer to all CCs.

Nora

On Jun 16, 2004, at 4:28 AM, Bruce & Nora Mai wrote:

> Andy: It’s very nice that you’re including everyone’s info on your
> flyers
> (and pretty much the same idea) but my idea was to more evenly
> distribute
> the responsibilty and cost of a multi-flyer to all CCs.

I’m not sure I get the cost issue. It cost me the same to print up my
flier with everybody’s dates and info as it does to print up an
“official” flier with everybody’s information on it.

Note: I’m not suggesting nobody use the general flier. I’m just saying
I don’t need to use the general flier.

—
andy trembley, Bitchy Design Queen – http://www.bovil.com/
San Jose, CA – ’72 R75/5 ’86 R100 (mine) – ’92 K75sa ’03 R1150R
(Kevin’s)
…remaining .sig trimmed for better message/.sig ratio

Not so much cost as coverage; if everyone is using it then you’ll get
coverage at more venues without spending more. If every committee covers a
particular area with the general flyer then everyone gets national coverage
without having to send their individual flyers to every con. I expect we’d
all send our individual flyers to most of the biggies anyway with heavier
coverage in some areas.
But this way we’d know that we’d have some general coverage just about
everywhere.

Nora

—– Original Message —–
From: “Andrew T Trembley” <attrembl@bovil.com>
To: <runacc@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, June 16, 2004 3:36 PM
Subject: Re: [runacc] The Flyer

> On Jun 16, 2004, at 4:28 AM, Bruce & Nora Mai wrote:
> > Andy: It’s very nice that you’re including everyone’s info on your
> > flyers
> > (and pretty much the same idea) but my idea was to more evenly
> > distribute
> > the responsibilty and cost of a multi-flyer to all CCs.
>
> I’m not sure I get the cost issue. It cost me the same to print up my
> flier with everybody’s dates and info as it does to print up an
> “official” flier with everybody’s information on it.
>
> Note: I’m not suggesting nobody use the general flier. I’m just saying
> I don’t need to use the general flier.
>
> —
> andy trembley, Bitchy Design Queen – http://www.bovil.com/
> San Jose, CA – ’72 R75/5 ’86 R100 (mine) – ’92 K75sa ’03 R1150R
> (Kevin’s)
> …remaining .sig trimmed for better message/.sig ratio
>
>
>
>
> View the Document: http://www.Costume-Con.org/procedure/runacc/
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>

In my opinion, paying for flyers is just spent moeny for the common goal,
which is to promote CC’s, no matter where they are and if you are going or not.
After Duckon a few weeks ago, I gave the remaining flyers I had made to the
Inkpens, because they will be hitting another con before I do. Before I took them
to Duckon, I sent them to WisCon. If I had had Nora’s UnaFlyer, I would have
taken that, too.
Henry

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I think we need to ask ourselves who we want to draw in with the
flyer–those who’ve heard about us before or those who have not.

I think the draft would appeal more towards someone who has some idea
about coming to a Costume Con and just is trying to figure out WHEN
they might make it.

I think another draft might be heavy on WHAT a Costume Con is and WHY
they should come, with a small section at the bottom listing the
dates/locations of future cons.

Frankly, I am not sure which group is larger _at the venues where
these flyers will be_. (Which likely are SF/F cons but could also be
Royal Court events, RenFairs, Belly Dance Festivals, etc.)

Dave Doering

davedoering wrote:

> I think we need to ask ourselves who we want to draw in with the
> flyer–those who’ve heard about us before or those who have not.

‘k, it’s a big download, but…
http://www.cc26.info/Posters/CC26.Fliers.pdf
examples of all sorts of poster/flier content

also, our “resume” for hotels and orgs outside our normal sphere
http://www.cc26.info/Posters/CC26.Packet.pdf

some of you have seen these before.

andy

I am sorry, but Yahoo was abusing me during this earlier discussion
and would not let me post. So I want to add a few comments.

— Ricky & Karen Dick wrote:

> We’re talking pro-run vs. fan-run conventions here, which are two

VERY

> different animals.

Exactly. The point I wanted to make was that Comic-Con at some point
made a deliberate decision to go pro. The WorldCon made one to stay
fan-run. I am asking here if the Costume-Con mark holders have made a
decision either way–to keep Costume-Con as a fan-run only event or
if the opportunity came up in the future to possibly have a pro-run
version?

I think the oft-made comparison between Costume College and Costume-
Con is relevant here (although College is an all-volunteer event).

Costume College performs extremely well for its current venue and
audience. The College staff has made a conscious decision to limit
total memberships rather than seek a larger venue. I believe Darla
will correct me if I am wrong, but moving to a larger venue, allowing
greater attendance, would also entail increasing programming, greater
hotel expense, and more support services.

Particularly, the larger venue’s programming would be the biggest
hurdle, because finding competent instructors becomes increasingly
difficult. Also, supporting those instructors and classes behind the
scenes becomes much more elaborate.

For Costume-Con, however, we face the inverse problem. The smaller
our size, the fewer people we have to run the con, attend the panels,
and, most importantly, compete. I am thinking that 200 is just about
the bare minimum we can have and not overwork everyone or have shows
with just five or six entries. And, with just 200, we cannot afford a
large scale venue for more programming, better lighting/sound for the
masquerades, or heavily promote it because we can’t afford ad space,
tables at cons, air travel, etc.

So while Costume College has an upper-limit to keep it a great event,
Costume-Con has an under-limit, a minimum, attendance to work.

For that reason, we cannot simply have discrete committees working
independent of each other to create separate and distinct Costume-
Cons and expect CCs to move onward and upward.

Dave D.

To get our definitions straight, when I say “pro run,” I mean a convention
is run as a Big Business deal and the $$$$$ generated goes into the pockets
of a handful of individuals. Examples: San Diego Comic-Con, Creation media
conventions, Chiller Theatre, and (I’m fairly sure) Dragoncon. The San
Diego Comic-Con is run under the aegis of a non-profit corporation, but I’m
sure there are some well-paid full-time staff positions involved for some
of the key players.

“Pro run” means “promoter” run, NOT “professionally” run. Even the smallest
fan-run convention can be run professionally (i.e., to a high set of
standards). Further, it has been my experience over the last 30 years that
most promoter-run conventions are about making the maximum about of income
for the promoter, NOT about providing a quality experience for the
attendees, who are usually treated like cattle.

More comments below:

At 02:51 AM 6/17/2004 +0000, you wrote:

>The point I wanted to make was that Comic-Con at some point
>made a deliberate decision to go pro. The WorldCon made one to stay
>fan-run. I am asking here if the Costume-Con mark holders have made a
>decision either way–to keep Costume-Con as a fan-run only event or
>if the opportunity came up in the future to possibly have a pro-run
>version?

Costume-Con came from fan-run roots, and I just can’t see it ever becoming
pro-run. For Costume-Con to “go pro,” it would have to be my paid full-time
job, and that just isn’t going to happen. I’m not sure what a pro-run
version would be like, but I guarantee you it would no longer resemble the
Costume-Con we have known and loved for 20+ years, and I’m not sure any of
us would like it.

And if Costume-Con “goes pro,” this list and everyone on it becomes
obsolete, as it will be the promoter (me) and a hand-picked group of
committee people calling the shots every year. That’s not what I want, and
I don’t think that’s what you want, either. In spite of some of the
problems generated by having a different committee in a different city
every year, it is the mix of different creative energies that helps keep
Costume-Con going, and trying new things while maintaining some continuity
with the old. “more spice for the stew,” as my artist friend and Clown Hall
of Famer Jim Howle used to say.

>I am thinking that 200 is just about the bare minimum we can have and not
>overwork everyone or have shows with just five or six entries.

I think you are stating the obvious.

BTW, there have been multiple (5?) Costume-Cons with under 200 attendees,
and while the competitons were small, none of them were THAT small. (We’re
back to the statistic that says that there are 100 “hardcore” atendees, and
those “hardcores” are the ones who compete.)

>And, with just 200, we cannot afford a large scale venue for more
>programming, better lighting/sound for the masquerades, or heavily promote
>it because we can’t afford ad space,
>tables at cons, air travel, etc.

Then you provide what you can afford, and make do. There were conventions
where we were happy to have a couple of spotlights and a boom box.

Good Ghod, in the 80’s, when some of the largest CC’s were run, the concom
did not expect the con to pick up the tab for airfares, etc. If we happened
to be going to another con, we took flyers along and tried to mention
Costume-Con on any costuming panels we appeared on. If we were not
attending a con, we tried to send flyers with someone who was, or to
someone local to put out at the con. We put together press packets and sent
them out to local media and national costume- and sewing-based magazines.
Most of the promotion of a CC took place through the mails and phone lines,
not by going to every other convention in person.

Also, you should NOT base your estimation of how Costume-Con should be
properly promoted upon Kevin & Andy’s heavy rotation of bid parties for
CC-26. They are promoting Costume-Con as if it were as large and had
pockets as deep as a WorldCon. It is not, and does not. Much of their party
expense is going to end up coming out of their own pockets. They do it
because (1) they have good jobs and can afford to do it, (2) they like to
throw parties, and (3) they like to SMOF. But even if their Costume-Con
draws 1,000 people, it will not make back the hotel room nights, airfares,
and consumables used at those parties.

>For that reason, we cannot simply have discrete committees working
>independent of each other to create separate and distinct Costume-
>Cons and expect CCs to move onward and upward.

CC was in a strong growth pattern in the 1980’s, when the con was not only
changing committees every year, but bouncing coast to coast as well, so it
*was* “moving onward and upward” with independent committees. (In fact,
most of the committees were more independent than they are now.) Recent
growth problems with the con can be attributed to other factors, some
completely beyond the control of the concoms, which have already been
endlessly discussed here.

I agree that it would be helpful to have some information in a centralized
location so each committee isn’t reinventing the wheel, and that’s why
various items are getting written and incorporated into the CC website as
time permits (like how to put together a bid, how to negotiate with a
hotel, etc., etc.). Some people have put in phenomenal amounts of work so
far, but it’s a long process, and none of us are getting paid for this, so
it’s not going to happen overnight.

If everyone would put as much effort into running and promoting their own
CC’s as they are into writing comments to this list, attendance would not
be an issue. Be aware of the Big Picture, but for the short term, we all
really need to concentrate on the individual Little Pictures.

–Karen

Ricky & Karen Dick wrote:

> Also, you should NOT base your estimation of how Costume-Con should be
> properly promoted upon Kevin & Andy’s heavy rotation of bid parties for
> CC-26. They are promoting Costume-Con as if it were as large and had
> pockets as deep as a WorldCon. It is not, and does not. Much of their party
> expense is going to end up coming out of their own pockets. They do it
> because (1) they have good jobs and can afford to do it, (2) they like to
> throw parties, and (3) they like to SMOF. But even if their Costume-Con
> draws 1,000 people, it will not make back the hotel room nights, airfares,
> and consumables used at those parties.

I’m going to half-argue with this.

I think doing bid/promo parties at key conventions is valuable. I think
Costume-Con, WorldCon and (in our region) WesterCon are the key
traveling conventions. WorldCon and WesterCon are, for us, a way to draw
the attentions of the nomadic fan, and build the core membership.

I think costume-heavy local conventions (and we’ve got an embarrasment
of wealth here, with BayCon, Further Confusion, SiliCon, Fanime,
Yaoi-Con and others) are also worth doing parties at, probably more so
than traveling cons at least for short-term and/or individual gains. By
having a presence at BayCon we draw the attentions of local fans who
might consider driving 4-5 hours to go to a CC but don’t travel any further.

As for the rest of the cons, we’re really doing this sort of thing
because we like to throw parties, and there are so many good conventions
throughout California. We’re going to the cons anyway, so we might as
well. It’s an excuse to pay for a nicer suite. All of our party expenses
come out of our pockets. Our bid lets us at least turn it into a tax
write-off.

And, wildly enough, every time we get a person or two who wouldn’t pick
up a CC flyer asking what this is all about and becoming interested.

andy

At 10:33 AM 6/25/2004 -0700, you wrote:

>I’m going to half-argue with this.

Thanks for responding, and thanks for only half-arguing. I really
appreciate what you and Kevin are doing to promote CC, but you have to
admit it’s a hard act for others to follow.

You are fortunate that you have a plethora of conventions within easy
travel distance to you. This may not be the case for folks throwing
Costume-Con bids in other parts of the country. And very few of us can
afford to follow Costume-Con through its annual rotations, let alone
WesterCon and WorldCon.

I think if I were working on a more limited budget than you have, I might
do promo parties also, but closer in to the actual convention once the bid
had been won. JMHO.

–Karen

Ricky & Karen Dick wrote:

> I think if I were working on a more limited budget than you have, I might
> do promo parties also, but closer in to the actual convention once the bid
> had been won. JMHO.

That I won’t argue with. Heavy regional promotion in the last year (or
even two) before the con is a really big deal. I don’t think our
promotion is going to get us that many votes. I could be wrong, though 😉

I’m going to pick on Charles and Dave a bit.

Quite a few California con nomads go to more “inland” western
conventions than we do. Over the last 6 months at conventions I’ve heard
“There’s a Costume-Con in Utah? Why haven’t we seen them promoting?” or
“I saw Dave/Charles/whomever at a con last month, and they weren’t doing
anything to promote CC.”

Now, I know some of this (not making it to conventions) was purely life
getting in the way. Not promoting at a convention you’re at (or even
being perceived as not promoting at a convention you’re at) is a
problem, though.

Face time is important in that last year. Face time is really important
that last year if it hasn’t been happening much before. Hell, we
volunteered to run LACon’s masquerade (they got someone local and
competent who has been building bridges and putting out political fires
the last few years) to get mondo local and international face time for
our run-up. We’ll probably still volunteer for prominent positions in
the LACon Masquerade (and encourage our committee members to do the
same) to get the exposure.

anyway, that’s enough rant for the moment.

andy

>Andy wrote: “I’m going to pick on Charles and Dave a bit… Not promoting
>at a convention you’re at (or even
>being perceived as not promoting at a convention you’re at) is a problem,
>though.”

I won’t argue the point to say that CC23 could do more to promote itself. I
think every con could do more. Charles and I are also perfectly willing to
admit to our limitations when it comes to face time. It’s no excuse, but
both of us lost our jobs two years ago and still have not found comparable
full-time employment. So rather than our expected canvassing of WorldCons,
Westercons, etc., we have been staying closer to home.

However, to be fair, neither of us have been to any cons other than to
CostumeCon. So if someone recalls seeing “Dave” or “Charles” elsewhere not
promoting CC23, I’d like to know about it. (And Kenneth Branagh doesn’t
count for Dave.)

I am grateful to the many people who have stepped up to the plate to
promote us at various cons throughout the country. I think it has helped to
have local people there promote CC.

Dave Doering
CC23: Utah
www.cc23.org

>Ricky & Karen Dick wrote:
> > I think if I were working on a more limited budget than you have, I might
> > do promo parties also, but closer in to the actual convention once the bid
> > had been won. JMHO.
>
>That I won’t argue with. Heavy regional promotion in the last year (or
>even two) before the con is a really big deal. I don’t think our
>promotion is going to get us that many votes. I could be wrong, though 😉
>
>I’m going to pick on Charles and Dave a bit.
>
>Quite a few California con nomads go to more “inland” western
>conventions than we do. Over the last 6 months at conventions I’ve heard
>”There’s a Costume-Con in Utah? Why haven’t we seen them promoting?” or
>”I saw Dave/Charles/whomever at a con last month, and they weren’t doing
>anything to promote CC.”
>
>Now, I know some of this (not making it to conventions) was purely life
>getting in the way. Not promoting at a convention you’re at (or even
>being perceived as not promoting at a convention you’re at) is a
>problem, though.
>
>Face time is important in that last year. Face time is really important
>that last year if it hasn’t been happening much before. Hell, we
>volunteered to run LACon’s masquerade (they got someone local and
>competent who has been building bridges and putting out political fires
>the last few years) to get mondo local and international face time for
>our run-up. We’ll probably still volunteer for prominent positions in
>the LACon Masquerade (and encourage our committee members to do the
>same) to get the exposure.
>
>anyway, that’s enough rant for the moment.
>
>andy
>
>
>View the Document:
><http://www.Costume-Con.org/procedure/runacc/>http://www.Costume-Con.org/procedure/runacc/
>
>
>
>Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
>ADVERTISEMENT
>
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

>Karen wrote: “”Pro run” means “promoter” run, NOT “professionally” run.”

I agree. After spending some time thinking through your post, I also
conclude that the current volunteer/rotation system is in fact the most
realistic way to run CC. I also agree that even with a volunteer staff, the
CC can still be run professionally.

It isn’t that I was looking for a way to make CC a “pro run” (in either
sense), rather, that we congenially accept the limitations we impose on
ourselves for having an all-volunteer rotation system.

I would like to see CC hit 450-500 attendees each year, however, if for no
other reason than for the variety of different talents/interests we would
see. To get there takes intelligent action with less re-inventing the
wheel, which is why I ask questions here. Also, lots of passion, which, if
the ICG lists are any indication, we are chock full of.

Dave D.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hello!
I know that the SLCG/CC25 will be having a party at Archon, and CC24 most
likely. At this point, I am planning on having a combo party for CC23 and the
CC26? bid Friday night.
Does any other bids want in on my party?
Henry

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

At 04:10 PM 6/25/2004 -0600, you wrote:

>I would like to see CC hit 450-500 attendees each year.

Absolutely! So would I. We are definitely in agreement there. Hopefully,
the con is now in a rebuilding phase. And the economy is improving, right?
Mr. Bush says it is, right?

>To get there takes intelligent action with less re-inventing the
>wheel, which is why I ask questions here.

You and Charles also come from a general fannish background vs. a costuming
background, so some of what the rest of us take for granted as Costume Con
history/culture may seem bewildering to you at times. There is usually some
piece of sound logic (or some historical bit of trial and error) as to why
we do some of the stuff we do.

>Also, lots of passion, which, if the ICG lists are any indication, we are
>chock full of.

*hee!* The problem is keeping the passion from erupting into flame wars at
any given time.

–Karen (off to email Fran Evans about getting her mailing list of
designers, so we can solicit them directly for the CC-23 Design Contest)

In a message dated 6/25/2004 6:50:23 PM Central Daylight Time,
castleb@pulsenet.com writes:

> The problem is keeping the passion from erupting into flame wars at
> any given time.

I have to say that, for the most part, Costuming Fandom has managed to keep
most of the Politics out of our field. The WorldCon field is overgrown with
Politics, which is why I rather play in with the rest of you. You share your
toys!
Henry

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Oh, and one last word on “promoter-run” conventions.

My typical use of the word “promoter” is as an adjective attached to the
noun “scum.”

This is a real hot spot for me right now, as my livelihood is currently
being severely impacted by the promoter scum (TransWorld Corp.) that runs
the annual Halloween, Costume, Party, and GIft trade show in Chicago. The
story is too long to go into here–just suffice it to say that if I
disliked “promoter-run” conventions before, I absolutely LOATHE them now.
And this is why I reacted as strongly as I did to the suggestion that
Costume-Con become “pro-run.”

–Karen

—– Original Message —–
From: “Ricky & Karen Dick” <castleb@pulsenet.com>
To: <runacc@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, June 25, 2004 11:03 AM
Subject: Re: [runacc] Re: Future of Costume Con (was Big conventions)

> CC was in a strong growth pattern in the 1980’s, when the con was not only
> changing committees every year, but bouncing coast to coast as well, so it
> *was* “moving onward and upward” with independent committees. (In fact,
> most of the committees were more independent than they are now.) Recent
> growth problems with the con can be attributed to other factors, some
> completely beyond the control of the concoms, which have already been
> endlessly discussed here.

Don’t forget the demographics of we Baby Boomers showing up in droves at
these events.

Regarding andy’s comments, I anticipate that CC26 will get a goodly number
of people than, say, here in the Midwest or the East Coast, but I still
seriously doubt it will be close to the size of CC8. If I’m wrong, I’ll be
pleasantly suprised (and would hope to be there for it).

Bruce

We’ve come to the conclusion that the time is not right for a common cause
flyer, because this list gets too easliy distracted by side issues that are
far more “interesting” to talk about — like pro-run cons, and ICG
discounts.

Pardon us if this seems a bit huffy in tone, but we’re tired of trying to
make our case for a combined effort. We still believe that a common flyer
can be distributed to more places throughout the nation than one that is
only distributed regionally. If Andy’s flyer is the best CC as an
organization can muster, then we guess that’s the best we can hope for, even
if it only reaches costumers on the West Coast.

We (Nora and Bruce) will create our own flyer which will include mentions of
the future CCs and bids and try to get as many Midwesterners as we can and
try to hit a few other big cons on the Coasts. We don’t want to be in the
position of prodding people to help promote their own CCs.

Henry–

You missed the Big Flame Wars in CostumAPA in the 80’s.

Most of us who were chucking fireballs at each other then are now friendly.
Go figure.

–Karen

At 07:54 PM 6/25/2004 -0400, you wrote:

>In a message dated 6/25/2004 6:50:23 PM Central Daylight Time,
>castleb@pulsenet.com writes:
> > The problem is keeping the passion from erupting into flame wars at
> > any given time.
>I have to say that, for the most part, Costuming Fandom has managed to keep
>most of the Politics out of our field. The WorldCon field is overgrown with
>Politics, which is why I rather play in with the rest of you. You share your
>toys!
> Henry
>
>
>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>
>View the Document: http://www.Costume-Con.org/procedure/runacc/
>Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>

Hi!

Speaking for CCXV, which broke 400 just by sheer force of will, I will
say that a large part of the reason why we managed to do so stemmed from
my personal shepparding of flyers to a variety of venues that had
nothing to do with attending either Costume-Con or regular SF cons.

We also hit virtually every historic event and many of the regional cons
with handfuls of flyers. I think I’d have to check my records but we
attended more than 6 major regional cons that year just before CCXV. We
had an ad in the WorldCon program, traded space for as many ads as we
could so we didn’t break the budget for advertising.

But I’m noticing that a number of the people we had at CCXV no longer
attend anything in our area – they’ve moved away or changed interests. I
suspect that if we did it again next year, we’d find it hard to make 300.

And a tip: I’ve got a bunch of costume-friendly cons listed in the links
page of Costume-Con.org. Contact them and tell them that you’ll be
willing to trade ad space with them if they’ll publish your ads for free
or deep discount.

You could also approach the events I have listed in The ICG Newsletter,
if they aren’t on the CC site.

The only way to be sure the con gets noticed is to do the promotion.
There are ways to do the promotion without hosting parties in person.

By the way, speaking of the newsletter, I have ad space available. I
suspect a deal could be worked with the editor to include ads for
upcoming CCs, if the information could get into her hands…. 9-)

There are five issues of the newsletter to be published between now and
CC23…..hint…

-b
—
—
Betsy R. Delaney
Web Mistress at large

************************************************************************
http://www.WebInvent.com/ * http://www.hawkeswood.com/
http://www.Costume-Con.org/ * http://www.sickpups.org/
http://www.SchoolWithoutWalls.org/
************************************************************************

I think the “common cause” flyer is a very good idea.

However, the CC-26 bid has put considerable time and effort into developing
and distributing their own flyers, so a “common cause” flyer is redundant
to them. Also, they are also not a seated committee yet (as the bid has not
been voted upon), so they may be wise to keep CC-26 a separate entity from
CC-23/24/25, as CC-26 is not yet fully “official” and can’t be presented as
such.

Any bids past CC-26 are still in the “very nebulous” stage (no firm dates,
venue, etc.) and therefore aren’t ready to participate.

Ideally, CC-23, -24, and -25 should do “common cause” advertising and
flyers together if it’s going to be done this year, as they are all past
the bidding/voting stage and have seated committees. But it is entirely up
to the committees of CC-23 and CC-24 if they want to do this.

Unfortunately, you have just demonstrated the difficulty of having any kind
of centralized “information flow” for Costume Con from year to year.

–Karen

At 10:19 PM 6/25/2004 -0500, you wrote:

>We’ve come to the conclusion that the time is not right for a common cause
>flyer, because this list gets too easliy distracted by side issues that are
>far more “interesting” to talk about — like pro-run cons, and ICG
>discounts.
>
>Pardon us if this seems a bit huffy in tone, but we’re tired of trying to
>make our case for a combined effort. We still believe that a common flyer
>can be distributed to more places throughout the nation than one that is
>only distributed regionally. If Andy’s flyer is the best CC as an
>organization can muster, then we guess that’s the best we can hope for, even
>if it only reaches costumers on the West Coast.
>
>We (Nora and Bruce) will create our own flyer which will include mentions of
>the future CCs and bids and try to get as many Midwesterners as we can and
>try to hit a few other big cons on the Coasts. We don’t want to be in the
>position of prodding people to help promote their own CCs.
>
>
>
>
>
>View the Document: http://www.Costume-Con.org/procedure/runacc/
>Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>

At 11:47 PM 6/25/2004 -0400, you wrote:

>But I’m noticing that a number of the people we had at CCXV no longer
>attend anything in our area – they’ve moved away or changed interests. I
>suspect that if we did it again next year, we’d find it hard to make 300.

I think the con attendance could be pushed higher than that if Costume-Con
actively courted the anime crowd. If even a small percentage of them
attended, it could really boost CC’s numbers.
This is also true of other geographic areas besides the Baltimore/DC corridor.

The problem with CC is that we need new blood, and the S/F community is not
the “feeder” system that it used to be. So we need to get the word out to
LARPers, anime fans, media cons, art-to-wear ladies, quilters, dollmakers,
drag queens, historical dance groups, bead groups, you name it. Kevin and
Andy are already trying to do this sort of outreach for CC-26. I’ll admit
I’m scared about what an infusion of so many different groups is going to
do to the overall “flavor” of the con, but it’s obvious that the con is not
going to survive if it only has S/F costumers and a smattering of
historical costumers to carry it.

“More spice for the stew,” right…?

>The only way to be sure the con gets noticed is to do the promotion.
>There are ways to do the promotion without hosting parties in person.

Absolutely.

–Karen

Not so much bewildering, as having to re-scale certain features. Since I’ve been involved in convention-fandom, and dance-events, so many things seem familiar from event to event. Publicity, logistics, planning, bugeting, security. But the % of $ for photography, FFF, staging, out-of-state publicity comes out much higher. Another thing that caught us a bit off-guard, is new technology — even if I knew how to run last years CC, what do I do next year? Color, on-line FFF? How do I protect publication rights for an on-line FFF? DVD or VHS masquerade recording? MP3 pre-set masquerade sound-tracks? (it would be better than the last CONduit juggling trick) CD photo collection? And ASCAP license. Much of this is new to me. Also site voting, Life-Time Achivement awards, are new.

Charles

—– Original Message —–
From: Ricky & Karen Dick
To: runacc@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, June 25, 2004 5:53 PM
Subject: Re: [runacc] Future of Costume Con

At 04:10 PM 6/25/2004 -0600, you wrote:
<snip>
You and Charles also come from a general fannish background vs. a costuming
background, so some of what the rest of us take for granted as Costume Con
history/culture may seem bewildering to you at times. There is usually some
piece of sound logic (or some historical bit of trial and error) as to why
we do some of the stuff we do.

<snip>

View the Document: http://www.Costume-Con.org/procedure/runacc/

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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Yes, there have been some economic reasons for reduced travel in promotions. I fully expected Dave and I to be at hopefully different two conventions a year average. (Dave has a daughter he did not have when we first initiated the bid — I started grad school last fall.) But that does not mean that we couldn’t also arrange out-of-town assistance to help promote. But I would say that has been minimal promotion, until relatively recently (not pointing fingers).

It was a bit agonizing not to make it to Chicago, and a bit of a pinch to send Dave to Atlanta, but we knew someone had to make it to Atlanta.

I know Calgary sent down flyers for CONduit, but the four folks that made it from here, would have been there anyway (supporting our bid) — and we were pretty close (less than two flying hours — well it did cost a bit to fly). It would be hard to say how many more would have traveled out there, if they could have promoted here personally — probably not very many. Our guild certainly informed local guild members. I hope Calgary did visit Seattle, but I don’t kwow.

The costume-fan market is a narrow niche, and the collective publicity needs to be mixed with face-on connection. I’m more likely to go to an out-of-state event if: I have heard about it, and if I get a face-to-face invitation.

It seems like having a masquerade panel at local cons, showing CC videos, supporting local masquerades (which seems prevalent), and then the face-to-face (closer to the event), needs to be an appropriate mix.

We had good face-to-face contact at Hartford (CC-18), but at this far out, I don’t know yet how much that will actually result in attendees.

I do belive we need to promote nationally, for CC in general, and not just each regional CC event.

Charles

—– Original Message —–
From: David Doering
To: runacc@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, June 25, 2004 2:54 PM
Subject: [runacc] Challenges on Promotion

>Andy wrote: “I’m going to pick on Charles and Dave a bit… Not promoting
>at a convention you’re at (or even
>being perceived as not promoting at a convention you’re at) is a problem,
>though.”

I won’t argue the point to say that CC23 could do more to promote itself. I
think every con could do more. Charles and I are also perfectly willing to
admit to our limitations when it comes to face time. It’s no excuse, but
both of us lost our jobs two years ago and still have not found comparable
full-time employment. So rather than our expected canvassing of WorldCons,
Westercons, etc., we have been staying closer to home.

However, to be fair, neither of us have been to any cons other than to
CostumeCon. So if someone recalls seeing “Dave” or “Charles” elsewhere not
promoting CC23, I’d like to know about it. (And Kenneth Branagh doesn’t
count for Dave.)

I am grateful to the many people who have stepped up to the plate to
promote us at various cons throughout the country. I think it has helped to
have local people there promote CC.

Dave Doering
CC23: Utah
www.cc23.org

>
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Yes, we’ve discussed this for at least a year, but I would not dismiss either. For CC-23, we’ve often had other priorties, but do expect to start on some general advertising. (# x+1 priority, on a list of x) I suspect the other bids are in a similar status.

The importance of such advertising is likely to get imbedded in our agendas, and re-emerge later.

Thanks for the comment.

Charles

—– Original Message —–
From: Bruce & Nora Mai
To: runacc@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, June 25, 2004 9:19 PM
Subject: [runacc] We give up — (was Future of Costume Con and other threads)

We’ve come to the conclusion that the time is not right for a common cause
flyer, because this list gets too easliy distracted by side issues that are
far more “interesting” to talk about — like pro-run cons, and ICG
discounts.

Pardon us if this seems a bit huffy in tone, but we’re tired of trying to
make our case for a combined effort. We still believe that a common flyer
can be distributed to more places throughout the nation than one that is
only distributed regionally. If Andy’s flyer is the best CC as an
organization can muster, then we guess that’s the best we can hope for, even
if it only reaches costumers on the West Coast.

We (Nora and Bruce) will create our own flyer which will include mentions of
the future CCs and bids and try to get as many Midwesterners as we can and
try to hit a few other big cons on the Coasts. We don’t want to be in the
position of prodding people to help promote their own CCs.

View the Document: http://www.Costume-Con.org/procedure/runacc/

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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

This is a long, rambling message, but there is a point…

If it’s any help, there’s been a common conception (mis or otherwise)
that each con needs its own focus/limelight, and that the next one
coming up needs to be in the forefront of advertising. The Fashion Folio
is a prime example of this kind of thinking. I know I’ve heard people
say that it’s important for the current CC to get the materials out now,
and for the other CCs to wait until the deadline is over to start
heavily promoting, to avoid stepping on toes. I think that this
hesitation to advertise more than one CC at a time ultimately loses the
momentum built up by the previous year’s CC, especially when pulling in
local people who haven’t been to a CC in the past and who might be
willing to travel to future CCs.

In defense of the future CCs, it is Really Hard to concentrate energy on
an event that is taking place two years in advance or more.

Unfortunately, that’s exactly what needs to happen to ensure that you’re
going to get the widest field of attendees. And the sooner you get those
groups who don’t traditionally go to CC (Anime, LARP, re-enactor, etc.)
involved in the process, the better targeted your program will be
because you will know what these people are interested in learning.

I was aware of the difference between promoter-run events like the local
sewing events, which are commonly targeting quilters or art-to-wear
enthusiasts, and CCs since I was taking flyers to these events (and
re-enactments, LARPs, etc.). The biggie is the publication as early as
possible of the actual program. Simply saying that there will be
programming without indicating what that programming will be, for those
who have never been to a Costume-Con before, generally isn’t enough to
attract people who haven’t been before.

When I used to work for associations and dealt with their annual
meetings, people would request the program months in advance. Now,
granted, these associations had the dollars to be able to fix their
programs early – at least two months prior to the events with only minor
tweaking for participants – but I was fielding similar requests for info
about CCXV at least three months out.

If you know at least the highlights of the panels or demos or workshops
you plan to offer, providing this info ASAP is a Good Thing.

Ditto for the competition rules – the sooner these are set, the easier
it will be for you to use them as part of your advertising.

Interestingly, regarding SF cons as a source of incoming blood for CCs,
I was just talking with Larry Schroeder yesterday about the shrinking
of masquerades. He wanted to know if we were going to be at WorldCon
this year. The answer is, well, no. Sort of. We’re thinking of being up
at the con for the LOTR exhibit, and planning to be there during
Noreascon, if we can get tickets. But I just can’t justify paying the
membership fee they want for a WorldCon anymore. We saw a panel and a
half at Millenium Philcon, and spent pretty much the rest of the time
sitting in the convention center hallway entertaining Erin, who wasn’t
yet one and still too small to participate meaningfully in the con.
We’ll have the same issues with Katie this year, in spades, because
she’s three months behind what Erin was at MilPhil in development for
this year’s event (birthday in January versus birthday in October).
(wow, that’s an awkward sentence!)

It’s my feeling that WorldCon is pricing itself out of business – the
more it costs, the less likely it will be able to attract the younger
fen because the membership fees are huge. Dragon*Con charges below $90
for membership. Contrast that with $180 for Noreascon and it suddenly
becomes a lot easier to see why the younger crowd is heading elsewhere.
The Anime and fringe cons are even less expensive.

And those of us who could possibly afford to go have other priorities in
the way (see my comments about my family above, for example). I simply
can’t justify spending the bux to go and sit in the hallway. I can
generally do that for free. Yeah, I miss the masquerade, but considering
that I missed the end of the Historical at CC, I can’t be sure how much
I’d see anyway this year. Frankly, if I can’t leave the kids behind for
CC23, I’ll shell out the $$ but I don’t know how much I’m going to be
able to participate.

I guess what this means is that we’re going to have to work harder and
smarter to continue to pull in new blood if we’re going to up those
membership numbers. And advertising/promotion is a HUGE part of the process.

Betsy

—
—
Betsy R. Delaney
Web Mistress at large

************************************************************************
http://www.WebInvent.com/ * http://www.hawkeswood.com/
http://www.Costume-Con.org/ * http://www.sickpups.org/
http://www.SchoolWithoutWalls.org/
************************************************************************

Charles–

Some of it is new technology to me, too (on-line FFF). You just do the best
you can.

–Karen

At 07:53 PM 6/25/2004 -0600, you wrote:

>Not so much bewildering, as having to re-scale certain features. Since
>I’ve been involved in convention-fandom, and dance-events, so many things
>seem familiar from event to event. Publicity, logistics, planning,
>bugeting, security. But the % of $ for photography, FFF, staging,
>out-of-state publicity comes out much higher. Another thing that caught
>us a bit off-guard, is new technology — even if I knew how to run last
>years CC, what do I do next year? Color, on-line FFF? How do I protect
>publication rights for an on-line FFF? DVD or VHS masquerade
>recording? MP3 pre-set masquerade sound-tracks? (it would be better than
>the last CONduit juggling trick) CD photo collection? And ASCAP
>license. Much of this is new to me. Also site voting, Life-Time
>Achivement awards, are new.
>
>Charles
> —– Original Message —–
> From: Ricky & Karen Dick
> To: runacc@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Friday, June 25, 2004 5:53 PM
> Subject: Re: [runacc] Future of Costume Con
>
>
> At 04:10 PM 6/25/2004 -0600, you wrote:
> <snip>
> You and Charles also come from a general fannish background vs. a
> costuming
> background, so some of what the rest of us take for granted as Costume Con
> history/culture may seem bewildering to you at times. There is usually
> some
> piece of sound logic (or some historical bit of trial and error) as to why
> we do some of the stuff we do.
>
> <snip>
>
> View the Document: http://www.Costume-Con.org/procedure/runacc/
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
> ADVERTISEMENT
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>
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>——————————————————————————
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>View the Document: http://www.Costume-Con.org/procedure/runacc/
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>
>

That’s a fannish tradition — do the best you can, possibly bite off a little more than you can chew, and innovate.

Charles

—– Original Message —–
From: Ricky & Karen Dick
To: runacc@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Saturday, June 26, 2004 9:49 AM
Subject: Re: [runacc] Future of Costume Con

Charles–

Some of it is new technology to me, too (on-line FFF). You just do the best
you can.

–Karen

> >View the Document: http://www.Costume-Con.org/procedure/runacc/
>Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>

View the Document: http://www.Costume-Con.org/procedure/runacc/

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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

And if it screws up, tap dance.

–Karen

At 11:37 AM 6/26/2004 -0600, you wrote:

>That’s a fannish tradition — do the best you can, possibly bite off a
>little more than you can chew, and innovate.
>
>Charles
> —– Original Message —–
> From: Ricky & Karen Dick
> To: runacc@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Saturday, June 26, 2004 9:49 AM
> Subject: Re: [runacc] Future of Costume Con
>
>
> Charles–
>
> Some of it is new technology to me, too (on-line FFF). You just do the
> best
> you can.
>
> –Karen
>
> > >View the Document: http://www.Costume-Con.org/procedure/runacc/
> >Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
> View the Document: http://www.Costume-Con.org/procedure/runacc/
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
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>
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>
>
>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
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>

In a message dated 6/25/2004 10:20:53 PM Central Daylight Time,
castleb@pulsenet.com writes:

> You missed the Big Flame Wars in CostumAPA in the 80’s.

Karen,
I only go into fandom around 1984. Sorry if that makes you feel old.
Admittedly, I have been around and slow in getting to the position that I am in,
but I still feel like a newcomer. It probably comes from too many years hanging
out with old timers that told too many “No ‘kidding’, I was there” BS stories.
I do know that I have coveted the outside position and learned by watching
mistakes by people, even those that were close to me at the time.
Henry

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Bruce & Nora,
Never give up! Never surrender! I believe in your grand unified flyer
concept. I also believe in the individual flyer that also gives even more info
about a specific CC.
I, personally, would love to have a copy of your grand unified flyer.
Henry

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

At 08:04 PM 6/26/2004 -0400, you wrote:

> I only go into fandom around 1984. Sorry if that makes you feel old.

Lots of fannish folk (and costumers!) “older” in fandom than me, just not
necessarily writing on this board, LOL!

1984 was the year of LACon II, one of the largest WorldCons (and
masquerades!) ever. Lots of frayed tempers and flame wars that year, and
the publication of the infamous CostumApa 8.5.
Very difficult to be very competitve on stage and then try to find the
“off” switch the rest of the time, especially when you are young and full
of piss and vinegar.

I now live about 2 hours from one of my most bitter rivals in those days
(Sally Fink), and we socialize several times a year. I’ve also asked her to
be a judge for the CC-23 Fashion Design Contest.

Times change, eh?

>I do know that I have coveted the outside position and learned by watching
>mistakes by people, even those that were close to me at the time.

Good to learn by watching others, both the “this works” stuff and the “this
was a really bad idea” stuff. I try to keep learning new things all the
time, so I don’t fossilize.

“When you’re green, you grow. When you’re ripe, you rot.”

All of us need to stay green.

–Karen

Does CC23 have a specific logo or are you just using a generic Egyptian
look?

Nora

Thank you from both of us for finally some constructive talk about
promotion. Now, the next step is we all have to actively DO something.
We’ll have some info for you all shortly, but we want to get our ducks in a
row, first.

As for the venues discussion, I think we had this discussion partially at
CC22, but it bears expansion. Our “seasoned” members have always stressed
the necessity to hit the big conventions, like Worldcon, obviously, but as
Karen stated, our new numbers are not going to be coming from there. I
hadn’t completely considered the financial factor of younger people (and not
so young) who can’t afford a Worldcon. We need to concentrate more on the
smaller or newer media cons, like the anime crowd, the furries and the
regional general SF events like our Archon that are cheaper to go to.
Frankly, the way things are going, Worldcon will eventually become
irrelevant for many costumers who don’t have the time or money to make the
grander outfits that appear on that stage. That is going to take more
co-ordination than the individual con committees are used to. Hence, the
necessity for at least ACTING like a central corporation, even though we
will not be. If it appears we are represented everywhere, that can only
help.

Betsy had a number of very good points about the smaller, niche groups that
most of us have no experience with at all. We need to come up with a plan
to reach those folks. Again, watch this space.

Thanks for the support, Henry. 🙂

Bruce

On Jun 25, 2004, at 9:29 PM, Ricky & Karen Dick wrote:

> However, the CC-26 bid has put considerable time and effort into
> developing
> and distributing their own flyers, so a “common cause” flyer is
> redundant
> to them. Also, they are also not a seated committee yet (as the bid
> has not
> been voted upon), so they may be wise to keep CC-26 a separate entity
> from
> CC-23/24/25, as CC-26 is not yet fully “official” and can’t be
> presented as
> such.

I hadn’t thought quite in those terms, but you’re exactly right.

—
andy trembley, Bitchy Design Queen – http://www.bovil.com/
San Jose, CA – ’72 R75/5 ’86 R100 (mine) – ’92 K75sa ’03 R1150R
(Kevin’s)
…remaining .sig trimmed for better message/.sig ratio

On Jun 26, 2004, at 3:51 AM, Betsy Delaney wrote:

> If it’s any help, there’s been a common conception (mis or otherwise)
> that each con needs its own focus/limelight, and that the next one
> coming up needs to be in the forefront of advertising. The Fashion
> Folio
> is a prime example of this kind of thinking. I know I’ve heard people
> say that it’s important for the current CC to get the materials out
> now,
> and for the other CCs to wait until the deadline is over to start
> heavily promoting, to avoid stepping on toes. I think that this
> hesitation to advertise more than one CC at a time ultimately loses the
> momentum built up by the previous year’s CC, especially when pulling in
> local people who haven’t been to a CC in the past and who might be
> willing to travel to future CCs.

I’m going to split the difference with you on the question of promoting
the folio. I think that the folio should be promoting two years out,
which means overlapping with a previous folio. The only cut-point I
think that needs to be in place is that entries aren’t accepted until
the previous folio closes registration.

I’m also going to argue violently against promoting only the next CC.
When folks hear our bid is for ’08, the next thing they want to hear
(if they are at all interested) is where CC will be next year (et al).
I don’t know if we’ll successfully build any business for Utah, but
we’re at least building buzz for them.

—
andy trembley, Bitchy Design Queen – http://www.bovil.com/
San Jose, CA – ’72 R75/5 ’86 R100 (mine) – ’92 K75sa ’03 R1150R
(Kevin’s)
“It’s not pink, it’s peach-colored. Pink is tacky.”
–Manfred Pfirsich Marie Rommel

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At 01:02 PM 6/28/2004 -0700, you wrote:

>I think that the folio should be promoting two years out,
>which means overlapping with a previous folio. The only cut-point I
>think that needs to be in place is that entries aren’t accepted until
>the previous folio closes registration.

Works for me. I think you said in an earlier discussion that the Folio
should always be open for entries–when the deadline hits for one CC, then
entries should be directed to the next one.

>I’m also going to argue violently against promoting only the next CC.

I agree–like WorldCon and other rotatings cons, CC needs to be promoted as
far out as possible so people can start making plans, saving vacation time,
and saving travel $$$ if they need to go some distance to get there. In the
80’s, people were always amazed at work when I knew what dates I needed off
(for WorldCon, WesterCon, and Costume-Con) 2-3 years in advance.

Haunters just started their own rotating convention (HauntCon) this year.
The idea is to be in a different city each year to allow members to visit
local haunts that are in permanent facilities.
It will be interesting to see what kind of membership they draw each year.
(The first one drew 500; the promoter would like the con to draw
2,000-3,000.) Like Costume-Con, there is a certain group that will follow
the con around the country, but it is not that large. The first one was in
Charlotte, NC, and they even did TV advertising to try to reach the home
haunter and horror movie fan crowd, but I don’t think it was very effective.

>When folks hear our bid is for ’08, the next thing they want to hear
>(if they are at all interested) is where CC will be next year (et al).
>I don’t know if we’ll successfully build any business for Utah, but
>we’re at least building buzz for them.

Hey, Ricky just met someone at an Indiana haunt convention last weekend who
lives in the Ogden area, had never heard of Costume-Con, and is now jazzed
that there is an event like that coming to their home town, LOL!

–Karen

On Jun 25, 2004, at 8:19 PM, Bruce & Nora Mai wrote:

> Pardon us if this seems a bit huffy in tone, but we’re tired of trying
> to
> make our case for a combined effort. We still believe that a common
> flyer
> can be distributed to more places throughout the nation than one that
> is
> only distributed regionally. If Andy’s flyer is the best CC as an
> organization can muster, then we guess that’s the best we can hope
> for, even
> if it only reaches costumers on the West Coast.
>
> We (Nora and Bruce) will create our own flyer which will include
> mentions of
> the future CCs and bids and try to get as many Midwesterners as we can
> and
> try to hit a few other big cons on the Coasts. We don’t want to be in
> the
> position of prodding people to help promote their own CCs.

I think many of us are pushing, and there are solutions.

I have encouraged people in this group to enter the conventions they’re
going to be at in the calendar, and set reminders to be mailed out.
Why? So we can make use of the group and mail flyers out to those
folks. Our WesterCon reminder went out two weeks ago. I’d take your
fliers to WesterCon, but we’re leaving on Thursday morning, so it’s a
bit late to mail packets. Still, if anybody can get me flyer files, I
can print some to take along.

We have developed a large bid/marketing committee, with members around
the country. We have our own calendar reminders, and our folks
regularly email us asking to restock on fliers and award ribbons for
their convention seasons. I know our fliers and awards are seen at
local and regional cons around the country.

Oh, and of course, it’s in the interest of any bid to promote the CC
that their vote takes place at. More memberships means more potential
votes which means more potential supporting members and more seed
money.

—
andy trembley, Bitchy Design Queen
http://www.bovil.com/
“It’s not pink; it’s peach-colored. Pink is tacky.” –Manfred Pfirsich
Marie Rommel

>Nora asked: “Does CC23 have a specific logo or are you just using a
>generic Egyptian look?”

We are working on a logo reflecting costuming, the Egyptian Theater, Utah’s
Delicate Arch. and a Stargate.

Dave Doering

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

ages ago, on Apr 27, 2004, at 4:29 AM, Bruce & Nora Mai wrote:

> What about St. Louis?

I was talking with Empress Helen Twelvetrees and Emperor Tim of Las
Vegas last week at Reno Coronation.

Word from them is a Baronial Court is being formed in St. Louis. If
you’ve got folks who can watch the local gay newsrag for announcements,
keep an eye out for “Baronial Adornment,” the event where the first
Baron and Baroness of St. Louis will be elected and announced. It will
probably be a pretty major regional event.

And just a reminder for Ogden and Des Moines:

http://www.impcourt.org/icis/chapters/desmoines.html
http://www.imperialcourtofia.org/Coronation%20XI.htm
Iowa coronation is September 25, 2004, and there’s a tiny chance we
might be there. Now they’ve got a theme… “Vampires, Witches and
Warlocks: A Nocturnal Journey into Magic, Voodoo and Beyond.” The
fancier and gothier the better.

http://www.impcourt.org/icis/chapters/ogden.html
Ogden’s coronation is November 19, 2004. They’ve got a crap theme: “An
Evening of Diversity, Worldwide Celebration”
Coronations take part in “acts” and they’re doing a different theme for
each act (I assume in this order)
A Journey to Cirque du Soleil
Party Down Bourbon Street
Celebrate A Chinese New Year

—
Andy Trembley, Bull-in-Drag
The Bovine Illuminati (It’s the Cows, Inc.)
http://www.bovil.com/
Moo!

Bruce and Nora:

As the instigator of the various threads that took attention away from the
flyer issue, I apologize.

I think part of the problem with uniting us behind a flyer is the struggle
we have in being relatively autonomous concoms. I for one am not sure if I
should take the bull by the horns to confirm the use of a general purpose
flyer or wait for someone else to do so.

This can change, of course. However, since we don’t have an accepted
procedure to create and store draft flyers, review that flyer content, then
approve it, it is going to take a while to get everyone on the same page.

Actually, I think we are on our way towards solving this even if it doesn’t
look like it.

Dave Doering

Little busy there. Will this be soon? “Branding” for a con is always good
and should be started early.

Nora

—– Original Message —–
From: “David Doering” <dave@techvoice.com>
> >Nora asked: “Does CC23 have a specific logo or are you just using a
> >generic Egyptian look?”
>
> We are working on a logo reflecting costuming, the Egyptian Theater,
Utah’s
> Delicate Arch. and a Stargate.
>
> Dave Doering
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>
> View the Document: http://www.Costume-Con.org/procedure/runacc/
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>

Nora asked: Will this be soon?”

I would have wanted it ten months ago. This is a case of
someone “committing to the job” and not coming through. So now it’s
time to rush on Plan B.

Dave D.

Andy raised an interesting point about how to describe our style of costume
activity. While Costume-Con welcomes the professional costumer, it is
primarily focused on those of us who do it for the love of costumes. We’ve
referred to this as being an “avocational” (vs. professional) costumer on
the CC23 website.

However, is this clear?

When we thought about this, here were our notes:

Amateur costumer–Doesn’t really convey the level of expertise of many
costumers. Often used to contrast a high-quality production vs. a less
careful one.
Hobbyist–Sounds like a dilettante, again not quite reflecting the efforts
seen in anime, furry, or historical costumes.
Recreational costumer–Conveys a less serious tone. Might be confusing with
“recreation” vs. “re-creation”
Leisure costumer–Discounts the enormous amount of work put into a good costume
Avocational–Might suggest pretentiousness. (Andy says it is “a touch too
clever”)

We opted for the latter term because it carried less baggage than the others.

Ideas?

Dave Doering
CC23

I don’t think we should even try to reduce the kind of people
Costume-Con attracts to one label – it makes our appeal far too focused.
I’d approach the description paragraphically, giving a short list of the
types of people who have attended in the past.

Dave, do Pioneer Days attract as many Rendezvous, western and Native
American exhibitors as they used to? We made it a point each year we
were out at Garden City to drive into Logan for the events. That might
be a treasure trove for attracting new people.

I especially recall a historic fashion show held several years running.

Granted, it’s been well over a decade (closer to two) since I was out
there during summer, but still….

-b

David Doering wrote:

> Andy raised an interesting point about how to describe our style of costume
> activity. While Costume-Con welcomes the professional costumer, it is
> primarily focused on those of us who do it for the love of costumes. We’ve
> referred to this as being an “avocational” (vs. professional) costumer on
> the CC23 website.
>
> However, is this clear?
>
> When we thought about this, here were our notes:
>
> Amateur costumer–Doesn’t really convey the level of expertise of many
> costumers. Often used to contrast a high-quality production vs. a less
> careful one.
> Hobbyist–Sounds like a dilettante, again not quite reflecting the efforts
> seen in anime, furry, or historical costumes.
> Recreational costumer–Conveys a less serious tone. Might be confusing with
> “recreation” vs. “re-creation”
> Leisure costumer–Discounts the enormous amount of work put into a good
> costume
> Avocational–Might suggest pretentiousness. (Andy says it is “a touch too
> clever”)
>
> We opted for the latter term because it carried less baggage than the
> others.
>
> Ideas?
>
> Dave Doering
> CC23
>
>
>
> View the Document: http://www.Costume-Con.org/procedure/runacc/
>
>
> *Yahoo! Groups Sponsor*
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—
—
Betsy R. Delaney
Web Mistress at large

************************************************************************
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Betsy,
I think you nailed the spirit of it all in a nutshell. I can remember
having some great fabric conversations at a local Rendezvous.
We shouldn’t try to label who comes to CC’s. At most, we should offer
examples of who shows up.
Henry

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

>Henry wrote: “We shouldn’t try to label who comes to CC’s.”

Betsy wrote: “I don’t think we should even try to reduce the kind of people
Costume-Con attracts to one label…”

Don’t get me wrong. I too want every kind of costumer–Royal Court, Middle
Eastern, Furry, Anime, Historical–to come. I also don’t want to label any
group as “the chosen ones” versus the “groundlings.” Hence our “crossroads”
theme for CC23.

However, when we need to be brief, such as with the mundane press, on a
flyer, or in an ad, what would be most appropriate?

Dave D.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Not to plagiarize, but here’s what the ICG lists on their site:

“We welcome everyone with an interest in the art of costuming – from
concept to assembly to display and all stages in between – in all areas
of costume. Our members include historic reenactors, professional,
educational and community theatrical costumers, science fiction
fans,renaissance festival participants, and a vast array of others who
are interested in the making, wearing and display of costume.”

It isn’t the shortest sentence in the world, but it does convey the
important stuff. Some tweaking to allow for “original” text might be
good, and it could, in theory, be shortened, but if you’re sending out a
press release, that’s how I’d phrase it.

I recall sitting in the lobby at the Lord Baltimore talking to a
reporter just after the Fashion Show at CCXV, explaining who we were. It
took quite some time. Fortunately, I had Bridget Landry and Vicki Warren
wander by – a rocket scientist and nuclear physicist respectively. It
was a prime example of the reach we have, and the ecclectic composition
of our crowd.

I’d emphasize the crossroads theme when talking about the different
aspects of our community, to bring focus to that theme. And for a deeper
explanation, you can always point them to your web site and to mine,
which contains an excellent explanation of our history at:

http://www.Costume-Con.org/genesis.shtml

-b

David Doering wrote:

>
> >Henry wrote: “We shouldn’t try to label who comes to CC’s.”
>
> Betsy wrote: “I don’t think we should even try to reduce the kind of people
> Costume-Con attracts to one label…”
>
> Don’t get me wrong. I too want every kind of costumer–Royal Court, Middle
> Eastern, Furry, Anime, Historical–to come. I also don’t want to label any
> group as “the chosen ones” versus the “groundlings.” Hence our “crossroads”
> theme for CC23.
>
> However, when we need to be brief, such as with the mundane press, on a
> flyer, or in an ad, what would be most appropriate?
>
> Dave D.
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> View the Document: http://www.Costume-Con.org/procedure/runacc/
>
>
> *Yahoo! Groups Sponsor*
> ADVERTISEMENT
> <http://us.ard.yahoo.com/SIG=129j4fok1/M=298184.5022502.6152625.3001176/D=groups/S=1707300337:HM/EXP=1088643671/A=2164339/R=0/SIG=11e2d64in/*http://www.netflix.com/Default?mqso=60183348>
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>
> ————————————————————————
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>
> * To visit your group on the web, go to:
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>
> * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
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>
>

—
—
Betsy R. Delaney
Web Mistress at large

************************************************************************
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